Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4630 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding a grudge and saying that popularity backlash was the reason most people voted against "my guy" The majority didn't vote *against* Nabeshin, and I think the vast majority voting for Spoor are voting *for* her and not *against* Winry. But it happens and truthfully- personal dislike of a series and a character is a valid reason for deciding a vote, it's always best to vocalize where the dislike comes from though. Come to think of it though..is Bluebird's justification valid? The dislike is adamant but really all he says is. "I'm voting for Spoor because I don't like Winry". No reason is clarified as to WHY he dislikes her or if he even likes Spoor. I'd actually feel really bad if my complaint an hour before the close of the poll disqualified him but you have to admit, it's not an argument- it's just a statement of dislike. He probably says why in early votes against her and we should just carry those over. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group B is now closed.
. . . and we have a rather monumental tie. Exact results, out of 20 votes: B-29: Balalaika whips Kurz Weber like the pretty boy he is, 18-2. B-30: Winry Rockbell and Admiral Spoor duke it out to a 10-10 draw. And for the record, although Spastic Minnow did raise a valid concern in a most recent post, I've only stated in the past that I prefer not to see personal like/dislike for a character being used as anything other than a tiebreaker, so I have to accept Bluebeard's questioned arguments. (But please don't do that kind of argument again.) And that leaves us with, at worst, the second most powerful three-way face-off we've ever seen in one of these tournaments; only the Elric brothers/Kurau-Christmas/Yukino-Souichiro face off in the Final Five of the Best Duo Tournament can compare. (And yes, I'll resist the urge to toss out all manner of sordid innuendo about three-ways given the trio of ladies involved.  ) I thought Balalaika/Spoor would have been a vastly interesting head-to-head, but Winry is as much a contender to win that one as either of the other two. No one's going to have a majority in that one, I think, and few voters will be able to easily discount even one of those contenders.
Anyway, I've got one more clip to double-check and then the next round will be up. Probably 20-30 minutes tops. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group C is now closed.
Results can be found here. And now the fun really starts. We have here a quartet of candidates that, from top to bottom, may be the strongest set we've ever had for the Final Four of a Group. No weak ones here; any of these are legitimate contenders to represent Group C in the Final Four. We also have, from top to bottom, an amazingly strong set of new clips this time, too, including a pair for the second match that I personally picked out. These are going to be hard ones to pick fairly, so make your choices only after careful considerations and post some good arguments. Group C-29 Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura Group C-30 Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Last edited by Key on Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Group C-29
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura I really, really enjoy both of these characters. Both of them support the main characters, even other secondary ones in various ways. But I'm going to have to give my vote to Kisuke because without his doing what he did in the Past, Ichigo probably would have never had met Rukia and become a Soul Reaper, etc. Tomoyo is wonderful but, at this point she's just outclassed by Kisuke. Group C-30 Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game While Wakaba is a strong girl and a strong contender in this Tournament, I'm still going to have to give my vote to Rakushun because of his help to some pretty messed up in the head people. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Many who are big Balalaika fans are also big Spoor fans. It is very much possible that those people will split their votes between the two, leaving Winry with a good shot to win it. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I am having a difficult time deciding how to pick C-30, so for now I'm just tossing out some thoughts on that match. I'll get around to voting later.
This is the match that, moreso than any other one in this tournament, I really, really hate to have to pick, because both are favorites from favorite series and both are equally worthy of advancing. For Rakushun, he is the epitome of the Wise Adviser character, but he is also so much more than that. He did save Youko, educate her about the Twelve Kingdoms, and help set her on the right path (both literally and figuratively) at a time she was at her most desperate, distrusting, and disillusioned, but these clips show possibly his most important aspect: by convincing her that the entirety of the Twelve Kingdoms wasn't out to get her, he earned such a depth of trust and friendship with Youko that he can nudge her in the right direction when Youko is having her final crisis of faith and conscience about whether or not she should pursue being Queen. No grandiose words were involved; just a simple, sincere show of confidence and faith. The following clip wonderfully shows the degree to which lead Youko values their friendship. In other scenes Rakushun also played a role in convincing the provincial Governors of Kei to acknowledge Youko as Queen and support her effort to roust the pretender to her throne. There's also the stuff that he did later in the series to put co-heroine Shoukei on the right path - and I heartily disagree that those actions made her a less interesting character. So Rakushun's got Wise Adviser, Savior, and Trusted Friend creds on his side. He's also got more personality than he is sometimes given credit for. For Wakaba, the clips here show how she influences the core cast members to carry out the ambitions which shape the series' plot. Her dream eventually motivates them all, but she had a much more direct impact on Kou's development and more subtle long-term influences on Aoba's thinking. She may not have the screen time of Rakushun, but her influences on the main characters are no less deep and the resonance of her influence is more pervasive. She is also quite the charismatic and vivacious character, too, while clearly not being just a pretty girl. In her way, she is as formidable a screen presence as a Balalaika or Admiral Spoor, as she certainly has the power to dominate with her presence like those two do. So Wakaba's got the Big Sister, Love Interest, and Legacy roles tied up. If looked at in the broader match-up sense, Rakushun is probably one of the toughest possible match-ups for Wakaba, as he's one of the few characters who made it this far (the others being Winry and Tanda) who can stand head-to-head against Wakaba's greatest strength: her depth of connection to the principle cast members. Wakaba is also a troublesome match-up for Rakushun because she is the only one in the tournament who can challenge his level of influence on the main characters of their respective series. In other words, this is a match-up of strengths vs. strengths. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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C-29:
Tomoyo is a pretty good supporting character, but she is outclassed here by Kisuke. Just look at the clips; Tomoyo's clip was unimpressive, while Kisuke exuded a very strong aura of wisdom and authority. His screen presence, as well as his exponentially better involvement in his show, makes him a powerful contender. Little Tomoyo, as much as she has her charms, just doesn't compare. Kisuke C-30: I just cannot pin Wakaba down. She's incredibly vital, influences her entire Anime inside and out, and yet she's dead for forty-nine and a third episodes of the show's fifty-episode run. Most of her scenes are in flashbacks, and this far into the tournament I am still unable to decide for myself if that should count against her. I'd like to hear more of what people think about the matter. Luckily for me, her opponent is Rakushun. Now, I hate him for how he ruined Twelve Kingdoms for me. But hey, I don't need to rely on my feelings, or even my own personal experiences. Looking objectively, everything Rakushun did Wakaba did better. Influence the plot? Wakaba invented the plot. Influence the characters? Wakaba changed Akaishi the Bully into Akaishi the Leader, and Directionless Kou into Kou the Young Man on a Mission. If Wakaba has one flaw (besides the whole flashback business), it is that it was her death influenced events as much as she did. But I have the feeling that had she not died events could well have played out in a surprisingly similar way to how they did. So, yeah. Wakaba Last edited by dtm42 on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Group C-29
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura My vote goes to Kisuke Urehara however this round was closer to me than I first thaught it would be when I started mulling it over. Kisuke definately wins on the cool factor however if you like that sorta thing tomoya is a whole battel load of cutesyness. Both characters are decently written and both come from well established tropes. To be fair I don't think either of them has a chance of beating the competition ahead of them. I therefore vote based on the fact that I think Kisuke's characters execution and involvment with the plot was a (rather small) step apove tomoyo's. Group C-30 Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Well I more or less made my feelings clear about this match up during Rakushun's previous narrow squeek (omfg im turning into my dad with the lame puns) While I fully aknowledge that Wakaba is a damn decent supporting character. I don't rate her as highly as some seem to. Rakushun has a much heavier more direct effect on the characters the plot and the world he is in. Additionally I find that that for once the supposed "likeability" of an Anime character translates into actual likeability. I really liked Rakushun. If he where real I would buy him a beer. That sense of shared connection made you relate more to the people he affected as well. That merits Rakushun my vote. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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With regards to Tomoyo, she has nowhere near the level of involvement with the plot that Kisuke has. Additionally, while she supports Sakura, she doesn't help her grow as a person. But as evident in the clip, Kisuke gives Ichigo advice, and more importantly, nigh-unshakeable confidence. Given all that, I'd say that Kisuke is an order of magnitude or two above Tomoyo. As for Rakushun, you're voting for him in part because you would buy him a beer if you could? Isn't that how Americans choose their presidents? But seriously, when was this a contest of likeability? |
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Well that's your opinion but I feel you are understating Tomoyo's involvement where Kisuke leant practical support. Tomoyo leant emotional. You will note I did vote for Kisuke but I am completely sure that will be my last vote for him.
This is a contest of best supporting character. While it is true that it shouldn't completely be about likeability to consider that likeability should not be a factor is farsicle. Characters that are likeable enhance the shows they are in with their likeability. And rakushun is so extremely likeable. So much so that he makes you like less likeable characters more because of their interactions with him. And I don't necessarily mean how their personalities changed. When choosing a president likeability should ideally not be a factor however we are not choosing a president we are choosing a fictional character. Fictional characters are there to entertain us .. the viewer. Therefore likeability is completely justified in this case. I usually do not like using the argument as it is often mistaken for blind favoritism. As you undoubtably have just done. However my argument I believe remains justified. And have used it in light of it's extreme relevance. Anyway weren't you arguing just a little while ago against the mods about not being able to vote based on wether a character is "really" a main or support character. You made a rather vehement post alont the lines of "no one should have the right to tell us how to vote". Now you about turn and start telling me what should and should not be included in a vote. And you are wrong in both cases. Once for supporting a vote that ignored the basic premis of the vote. And now for suggesting that a supporting character's personality shouldn't mean anything as is the ideal in a political vote. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3966 Location: New York state. |
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Match C-29: Tomoyo Daidouji (Card Captor Sakura)
This one's actually fairly close for me to decide on as Kisuke doesn't totally pander under the ruthless sensei/ formidable fighter shounen archetypes that Genkai and Hiko fall into and unlike the two mentioned characters, having a different character take his place would completely change how events unfolded with Ichigo and the show's other characters. Unfortunately, I can't help myself but get drawn to Tomoyo's charm. Ignorant as it may be for me to say this, Tomoyo's character was quite unique in sucking me into Card Captor Sakura for her maturity beyond her years, the costumes and camcording for Sakura and showing selflessness by helping Syaoran work up the resolve to further develop his bond with Sakura. Match C-30: Wakaba Tsukishima (Cross Game) Based on the arguments made against Rakushun last round that made it seem he made unique flawed characters into shallow goodie-goodies, I'm gonna have to go with Wakaba for this match. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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The really interesting thing about Winry/Spoor being so close is that no one picked Spoor to win the round compared to 9 for Winry.
Key (144) has regained the 4 points Olliff (136) and mow (135) gained on him from last round, and is almost guaranteed one of the top three spots now. Detailed results. |
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Spastic Minnow
Bargain Hunter Exempt from Grammar Rules Posts: 4630 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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[ramble]
I was thinking a little about the semantics of the tournament title and wondering if the way we voted would have been different if it were named differently. The title is "Best Supporting Character Tournament" and the focus that most of us (including myself), but not all, seems to be on how the character "Supports" in one way or another. But what if it were worded in the way major acting awards were worded, "Best Character in a Supporting Role." See what that does? It puts the emphasis on the "character" instead of the support. It's the kind of distinction that gives Judi Dench an Oscar for appearing in Shakespeare in Love for about 90 seconds. I sort of wish this had been my focus all along- it's not a huge distinction, a good character tends to be good support, but in these final rounds I think it does make a difference in how I decide how to vote, especially in this round in the Wakaba match (see below) and sightly in Ami's match next round. Ultimately I think I have to stay consistent, I've focused more on the quality of support in the matches up to this point, I'm going to have to stay with that. [/ramble] Group C-29 Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura voting for: Tomoyo I preached against favoritism within the past page but ultimately it's going to have to prove to be the tie-breaker here. From what I've seen of Bleach (The first arc and the beginning of the Bount stuff before I gave up) Kisuke is definitely an important character, mentor, teacher, ally, source of plot, and he's a funny and charismatic guy. But Cardcaptor Sakura is a completely different beast to Bleach and Tomoyo is as good of a supporting charcter in her story. She is emotional support and the most constant friend in CCS and, in like any princess show, it relies greatly on the importance of friendship. Plus, think about it, This is Card Captor Sakura we're talking about here- Tomoyo makes the outfits-- in this show those outfits are literally as important, if not more so, than Ichigo's sword- they have post credit features about them for Kero's sake. Kisuke teaches Ichigo how to control her sword, Tomoyo supplies poofy berets and knee-high boots- it's a draw! SO ultimately I go with the character in the show I finished, the one that makes me smile to think about. Group C-30 Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game voting for: Rakushun I haven't watched The Twelve Kingdoms, the premise reminds me too much of Fushiugi yugi (Sp?) which I came to really dislike by the end. But those clips almost make me want to watch it, on the strenght of Rakushun's presentation and healing interaction with a clearly damaged character. I did how however recently watch Crossgame, and I loved it, and I loved Wakaba. How can you not? She was an object of love- it was her role. If I were voting, as discussed above, on the strength and likability of the character despite the range of the support, I'd have to vote for her. But as it is I can't For a couple reasons. 1. I simply cannot support an inactive supporting character- she is dead, there is simply nothing more "real" that she can do to support the actions of the characters. 2. While it is undeniable she is a supporting character I think people unintentionally exaggerate the scope of that support. If the show were truly all about Baseball than it would be a valid argument. If it were about Ko and Aoba merely becoming friends and respecting each other than it would be a valid argument, but in both of these cases, the story wouldn't require her to die. The story is about her death, the story is about her, the story is about two people who cannot cope with her death and how they can finally with it, and how a mutual love is fostered through the shared experience and while the ways they cope with the loss are through baseball and a shared respect- which were Wakaba's wishes, it's not really a story that she can technically be a support. It would be different if she died on purpose in order to make Ko a pitcher and Aoba like him- but that is ridiculous, the best thing about her and the most tragic is how much she loved life and how she was looking forward to the future. And to say that she was the support for the coping of her own death really shortchanges the support of characters like Akaishi, Akane, the other friends and family and the real struggle of Ko and Aoba themselves. In fact, what I really wish is that I had watched this show earlier so I could have voted for Akaishi earlier. (or considered it- he did go against Pedro after all) |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I'd love to reply to Spastic Minnow, but comments like this one:
makes me unable to take them seriously.
How far into Bleach have you actually watched? That above is hardly "my opinion"; the facts are undeniable. Even without the Turn Back the Pendulum arc, Kisuke did more for Ichigo than Tomoyo/Madison ever did for Sakura. I've watched pretty much every episode of Cardcaptors (the full run of both seasons, not the disastrous abridged version), and so I do know what I'm talking about. I certainly am not underestimating or understating Tomoyo's involvement.
Key has already ruled that voting on likeability grounds will be tolerated. No, I am not telling you how to vote, but I am allowed to find fault with people's arguments; it's called debate. Classicalzawa's reasoning was sound given his/her personal beliefs about how much of a main character Nabuca was. Personalities are important, but this is not a popularity contest; personalities should only matter within the context of how good a supporting character it makes the contestants. Voting based how much you like a character - and not how good they were as a supporting character - is a popularity contest to me. Or at the very least, an incredibly weak (if perfectly legal) justification for a vote. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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But you're not debating. You're simply disdaining anyone who disagrees with you, and calling them unserious. You're setting yourself up as arbiter of right and wrong, and refusing to accept that any diverging viewpoint may have any merit to it. I'm not surprised at all. We're going to have to have you stop this, right about now. Consider that a very solid warning, with me wearing my moderator hat with all the dangly bits. - abunai |
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