Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group B is now closed.
With 20 votes in, the breakdown (and sorry, Skylark, but your vote change was after the cut-off time so it didn't count): B-25: Balalaika out-gunned Franz d'Epinay 12-8. B-26: Kurz Weber's mecha-fu proved superior to Shikamaru's ninjutsu, 15-5. B-27: Winry Rockbell defeated both Cornelia li Britannia and Hosaka 12-4-4. B-28: Letopanyu Spoor's commanding presence was too much for Reika Mishima and Leopold Scorpse, 14-4-2. No surprises on the winners, though the victory margins were a bit of a surprise to me; I knew Franz had some ardent supporters but never expected him to put up that big of a fight. Conversely, I expected the Kurz/Shikamaru match to be much closer and did not expect Spoor to be such a blow-out winner, even though I'm firmly convinced - based on having seen all of both franchises - that the right character won. This does set up an interesting match-up on the lower half of the bracket, though. Does Spoor have enough steam built up to knock out Winry? Anyway, Group C should be up sometime in the next hour or so. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3966 Location: New York state. |
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And now my Section B bracket's totally destroyed.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group C is now closed.
Results can be found here. Based on the way voting has gone in earlier rounds, I'm expecting two wipe-outs and two highly contentious matches here, especially C-27, which could be the first true power match-up of the tournament. I will especially be looking forward to analysis on that one from people who have seen both series in their entirety. Group C-25 Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Fool, Kaleido Star Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura Group C-27 Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible vs. Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Last edited by Key on Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Group C-25
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Fool, Kaleido Star Fool's clip was actually pretty impressive, but this one can't be judged on clips alone. Over the course of the series Kisuke does too much, and is too deeply-involved, to be denied advancement this early. Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura I can see Tomoyo's charm based on the clip, but in this case I have to go with the better-known (to me) commodity. Doug was good enough to beat Straight Cougar last round and does plenty enough in KPM (including helping the leads go into hiding and helping to rescue them multiple times) to earn a win here. Tomoyo has enough support that I'll be a little surprised if he can pull it off, though. Group C-27 Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible vs. Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms For me, this one isn't difficult, but I suspect it will be for others and that it will be very close. The Maestro may have an edge on Rakushun on being more colorful, but what Rakushun does for Yoko (and later Shokei, too) is something that the Maestro cannot match; while Stresemann certainly helped the leads of his series, Rakushun saved the lead of his series in every sense of the word and reformed a later co-lead. That his judgment later becomes synonymous with trust speaks volumes about the impact he has on his series and the strength of his character. This clip also shows some nice touches like his affection for his mother and initial nervousness about the drastic change he is undergoing in his life by helping Yoko. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Mao is actually a pretty important character in both seasons of DTB and certainly is worthy to get this far, but Wakaba's personality is at least as interesting and her impact on her series is far deeper and more pervasive. And if her clip here gets you to want to see her series - well, that's just an added bonus. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I almost forgot about scoring the mini-game and was ready to take a nap after getting home from work.
Franz put up more resistance than expected against Balalaika's apparently inevitable victory, and it seems unlikely to me that Kurz will best her next round. Then again, Kurz wasn't expected to beat Shikamaru, either, but he did (and by the widest margin this round, to boot). Winry predictably trounced her competition. Spoor's win under similar conditions wasn't quite as expected among mini-game participants (she was actually the least common pick of the three) is a continuing example of the Crest/Banner of the Stars characters (deservedly) outperforming expectations. So, anyway, results.
For you and me, perhaps. Key (114) scores a perfect round, and is now again just 1 point behind Olliff (115). Mow (111) drops back slightly to third place. Ggultra (93) and JesuOtaku (91) slip further back. This will be an uphill battle for anyone outside the top three at this point. |
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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A quick vote, since I know at least one character in all but one of the match ups.
Group C-25 Fool, Kaleido Star At this point I thought I'd be done with comic relief, and yet Fool still gets my vote. This is largely due to the fact that he isn't just comic relief, he plays the role of guide extremely well. Between how much fun his character is, how well his serious side is portrayed, and even the excellent acting by Koyasu, he gets my vote. Group C-26 Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura I'm sure if I'd seen more of Kurau this would be a bit tougher, but what I've seen of Doug makes him no match for Tomoyo. While she has her moments of annoyance, her ability to see a situation for what it is and provide a shoulder for all who need it makes her a great supporting character. Group C-27 Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms While I still haven't finished this series, Rakushun stood out as one of the best characters in the series. My memory is fuzzy, but I know I felt a deep appreciation for him from the get-go. Group C-28 Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game I'm not familiar with either character, but when someone dies in the first episode and can still play such a major role in a series, she gets my vote. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Group C-25
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Fool, Kaleido Star Voting for: Urahara Because: I loved the clip for Fool, but Urahara is just too essential to Bleach to go out now. He's tied to just about every possible aspect of the series' plot, and he provides decently entertaining comic relief when so called upon. Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura Voting for: Tomoyo Because: "Wheny you are doing special things, you must wear special clothes." I'm a little surprised Doug is still in this, although that might partially be left-over resentment from the first round. Still, I'm going with the more colorful character. Group C-27 Maestro Stresseman, Nodame Cantable vs. Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms Voting for: Rakushun Because: Firmly set now, as I can't reconcile the creepiness of the Stresseman's clip with how all the support for how he motivates and encourages the main characters. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Voting for: Wakaba Tsukishima Because: For this tournament, I've thought Mao is a bit of a light-weight, and against Wakaba, he just doesn't compare. Despite Mao being, ironically, the most human member of Hei's group (in the first season, anyway, debatable in the second), his role isn't nearly so important and not quite as endearing as Wakaba's. Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Group C-25
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach While I like both series, I just think that as a supporting character Kisuke has more infulence on the series as a whole. After all, without him doing the things that he's done...there wouldn't be a story. Group C-26 Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura Sticking with Tomoyo. She's Sakura's friend, costume designer, occasional muse and safety net. She provides stpport, not only to Sakura but to Shaoran and Meilin when they need it the most. Group C-27 Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms Rakushun because he, like Tomoyo, is the shoulder that the lead character needs every now and then. He is also the voice of knowledge that Yoko needed to help her survive this new and hostile world she found herself in. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise I don’t care either way in this group, I think that whoever wins C-27 will stomp on them anyway, but my vote is going to Mao, he just seems the more interesting to the two. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3966 Location: New York state. |
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Match C-25: Kisuke Urahara (Bleach)
I was gonna vote for Joun this round in following my mini-game. But with him gone, I guess I'm going with Kisuke as Ichigo wouldn't have regained his Soul Reaper power without him and he's often around to provide both comic relief and battle support throughout the series. Match C-26: Tomoyo Daidouji (Card Captor Sakura) The mature one and admirer among Sakura's circle of friends continues to have my support in this tourney. Match C-27: Maestro Stresemann (Nodame Cantabile) Refer to mow123's earlier post on the many types of roles that the Maestro provides throughout the show as comic relief, famous conductor and mentor for the two lead characters.
Without him, Chiaki wouldn't have gained the patience and flexibility to enjoy the music that he conducts in orchestras which was a major flaw with his character in the show's first season and Nodame wouldn't have spoiler[landed her first big opportunity to perform with a orchestra when she faced self-doubt over her piano-playing talents.] Match C-28: Wakaba Tsukishima (Cross Game) I finally had an opportunity to see the first season of Darker than Black. Mao does serve as a decent support character relaying information to Hei for his missions and being amused with the thoughts and actions of his teammates. But his character doesn't deliver as large of an impact as Wakaba. While not having as much presence in her series like Mao, Wakaba has a bigger influence on the major characters of Cross Game (Koh and Aoba) as the two slowly come to grips with her loss and fulfilling her final wish of making it to Koshien. |
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Mister V
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Group C-25
Fool, Kaleido Star Frankly I don't care for either. Going to go with this one, because his clip seems interesting, and... I'm not sure I want to vote for the other guy. Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory I guess I just prefer Doug's character type. The good, mature, supportive guy (who nearly always seems to have a bulky frame) never gets as much recognition as the best friend, so I'm going to support him. On a side note: my god, that Christmas in Doug's vid has horrendous voice acting  I was thinking of watching the series, but if I have to endure that...
Group C-27 Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible This vote is mostly dictated by the fact that Nodame is complete, and Stresemann's role in the entire series has been very noticeable. It's not Rakushun's fault - I know he is much more important and complex (even though one shouldn't dismiss Stresemann as a one-dimensional comic relief character), but the series just doesn't give him enough room to develop, to show his full potential. Yes, he's charming as he is already, but we've only been shown the beginnings of what he could have been (I'm sure his role is expanded in the novels?). Right now it feels like Stresemann played a much more important role throughout the three seasons than Rakushun. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise Seen one, not the other, and don't care to. Judging by the clip, she seems to be an interesting character, but Mao's simply cooler. He also allows us to see the life of Contractors in a way that other characters don't, and even if his downgrading to a squirrel and more comic relief than anything serious, the creators still managed to sneak in a scene from his past, and it was a nice touch. |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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Honestly, I don't know what possessed me to advance Hosaka so many rounds. I usually do not let my personal preference blind me as much as it did in this tournament. Even though he is a great character, his simply doesn't have the popularity to make any further as a purely fun and games type of character. Heck, his show isn't even licensed and it only appeals only to small niche of anime fandom. I am happy that he did make the round with clips, and I hope that someone will pick up the show because of them.
Group C-25 Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Fool, Kaleido Star Fool's clip was impressive, but Urahara is much more involved and deeper than the clip would suggest. He's a very likable guy, and he also play an essential role in shaping the plot, providing comic relief, and just throwing a wrench in things ever now and then just to keep things interesting. Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura Doug is far too dull to still be around at this late stage in the game. Tomoyo, with her particular type of charm, should have no trouble here, but I think she will meet her match when she faces a meatier opponent. Group C-27 Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible vs. Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms I know both characters very well, and I have to say it is refreshing to have a match-up between two characters that share a similar role; they both play essential roles in shaping important characters in their respective series. The deciding factor that gives Stresemann his edge isn't only because he is a much more colorful character. I believe that his main advantage lies in the fact that he is much more multi-dimensional than Rakushun, who admittedly plays a very convincing wise adviser role and has impressive results in the lives of two fairly major characters. Unfortunately for him, Stresemann also plays a substantial role in providing the catalyst need for the two mains of the show to achieve their true potential. Without his presence, both of the two central characters would be up a river without a paddle, and things would likely play out very differently than did to both of these mains detriment. Don't get me wrong, Stresemann is not the wise adviser that Rakushun strives to be, but that is a part of his charm that makes his opponent almost seem dull in comparison. Franz von Stresemann is a genius when it comes to music, and unlocking the hidden potential among people is a truly amazing thing to see in action. His character become more interesting because at the same time he is a man with so many unsavory character flaws that at first it seems impossible that the man in this clip and the world famous Stresemann conducting virtuoso are the same man. I believe that this is a part of what differentiates him from more traditional wise adviser types of character like Rakushun. I believe it provides him enough flavor and pizazz as supporting character to give him an extra edge as a supporting character in addition to his essential contributions in shaping the lives of both Chiaki and Nodame. In both cases, he was able to inspire the change required in both of these characters that allowed them to become successful in the music industry. This is truly spectacular when it required him to challenge and change the core values and characteristics of both of these characters. Stresemann has yet another edge over Rakushun, the conductor also proves to be the far more dynamic character by spanning far many roles than Rakushun. The most important being that of comic relief. Even that on its own is as memorable and as strong as some the pure comedy based characters that have made it into round 3. Complicating matters further, the world famous conductor is also the better pick because he is the finished product while with Rakushun we only saw the beginning and the potential for a great character. And unfortunately, due to the bounds of this tournament, we can only evaluate Rakushun based on his merits in the anime alone, and it is very clear that his role in the anime was an incomplete one. Without a doubt, Rakushun deserved to make it this far, but against a much more multi-dimensional and flavorful character like Stresemann that also played an integral role as a mentor and inspirational figure for the main characters, it is clear to me that the undignified, but brilliant conductor is the better pick here. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Call me a horndorg, but I thought that Mao's guidance, charm, and interesting alternate perspective as the ironically most human and likable character in the Darker than Black franchise make him the better pick against a character that relies mostly on flashbacks and great overall storytelling rather than being a genuine outstanding supporting character on her own. I also think that Mao is getting less credit than he deserves, because he is an important supporting character that does contribute a lot to the style and mood of the franchise. It is also true that without his presence much of his alternate perspective on what makes the contractors tick would be lost, and that personally was one of the most important things that gave Darker than Black an extra edge as one of many action shows. Last edited by Olliff on Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18454 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, I can't let this go unchallenged, Olliff, especially since the deciding votes in C-27 will likely be influenced by arguments made.
The same is true for Rakushun and the people he helps, though, so Stresemann has no edge here.
Purely a matter of opinion here. One could also say that Stresemann seems too fickle by comparison. Rakushun has the edge in consistency and reliability and serves his (admittedly more narrowly-focused) role better.
Again, also true for Rakushun and the people he was influencing, and to an at least equal degree. He merely (in Shokei's case) reversed the direction of a girl who was headed down a dark and dangerous path and (in Yoko's case) played a critical role in helping her to overcome her crippling issues with self-worth. Neither of those is any less challenging or involving than what Stresemann did.
I can't agree here, especially on the last point. Based on what I have read, Rakushun's role is no broader in the books than it is in the anime (in fact, he actually appears more in the anime than he does in the novels) and I don't see how it can be considered "incomplete" or only "showing potential." Rakushun is a fully-realized character who has his own storyline nicely chugging along when the series ends yet still remains a valued friend to two key characters. His development is far more subtle than Stresemann's but undeniably still there. In the provided clip, look at his interactions with his mother, including his body language as he leaves his mother behind. Look also at the pride with which he speaks when proclaiming how good a student he was. Later in the series look at his self-consciousness about Yoko's behavior, his discomfort over his human form, and his tentativeness when he believes that he no longer has a place beside Yoko because she is now transitioning to being a Queen. Later in the series look at the diligence with which he undertakes the task asked of him by the King of En and how carefully he analyzes every bit of information he gets. These are nuances to character development which make him into a believably well-rounded character. He doesn't need to act flamboyantly, as Stresemann does, to be distinctive; the small touches do that plenty well enough for him. I will certainly admit that this match is close, based on arguments that have been made about Stresemann previously, and may ultimately come down to personal preference for many, but I do not see any place where Stresemann has an overwhelming advantage over Rakushun and the places where he may have a small advantage are (at the least) balanced out by Rakushun's own advantages, such as having to climb out of poverty and prejudicial circumstances to be a success rather than starting out in the series as one, as Stresemann does. He also doesn't have the connections, power, and influence (at least initially) to fall back on that Stresemann does, so one could certainly make the "Rakushun does just as much with less" argument in his favor. And I'll again emphasize one thing I said earlier which Rakushun has that Stresemann can't match: being so reliable in judgment that his name is synonymous with trust. "If Rakushun is her friend then she can't be a bad person," Shokei says (unknowingly) to Yoko at one point to solidify her conviction that the Queen of Kei is worth approaching and interacting with, and the incognito Yoko takes that as the final evidence that Shokei is worth trusting with the secret of her real identity. That is a pretty powerful level of trust for a supporting character to receive, and throughout the series to that point we got to see Rakushun earn that trust. |
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Aylinn
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Group C-25
Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Fool, Kaleido Star Uruhara is the most interesting character from Bleach. His involvement in the plot and the help he offers to the main characters are good enough reasons to vote for him. Besides, I’m not convinced Fool is a better choice. Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura Doug – Tomoyo is cute, but she is not such a great supporting character to deserve to be in the next round. Doug at least seems to be more involved in the plot of his series. Group C-27 Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible vs. Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms This is the hardest match for me. I know both characters and I have been thinking which one I should choose. In the end I think Rakushun is the one that deserves my vote more. In Chiaki and Nodame’s case, Stressesmann provides important opportunities for their development as musicians, but Chiaki and Nodame ended up where they ended because they influence each other to begin with. Nodame would have never thought about studying in France had it not been for Chiaki. Chiaki was able to go to Europe because Nodame helped him to overcome his fear of flying. The main characters influence each other the most, whereas Stressesmann's contribution to Chiaki and Nodame's life is important, his contribution is not as critical as the support Rakushun gives to Shokei and Yoko. Moreover, the fact that Rakushun does it in much more difficult circumstances is, in my opinion, admirable. He could report that Yoko is in his house to the authorities and get a reward, taking into consideration his poverty such a reward must be tempting, yet he chooses not to do it. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Wakaba is the stronger contender in this match. The impact she has on her series is far greater than Mao. It doesn’t hurt that memories that the characters of Cross Game have about her encourage them to live, instead of being used as something that make them more depressed and angsty. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I'm voting early this week. Oh look, there goes a flying pig chasing after a snowflake in a documentary about Hell . . . . . .
Group C-25 Kisuke Urahara, Bleach vs. Fool, Kaleido Star I don't think Fool's clip was as fantastic as has been said by some voters. Of course Kisuke's clip was nothing special either. But I'm going to vote for Kisuke because I do believe he is near-unbeatable; doing his writeup was a challenge because there was so much I wanted to say (but couldn't fit it in). Kisuke does everything; he's funny, he's mysterious, he actively helps the heroes, and he sits on the sidelines like a chess master. The entire (canon) plot exists because of him, and he will frequently give it (and the characters) a proverbial kick up the backside when needed. Fool seems okay, but there's a reason why I picked Kisuke to win the whole shebang. Group C-26 Doug, Kurau Phantom Memory vs. Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura I'm actually glad that Doug made it this far. I like him as a character, and I do believe he was an excellent supporting character for his show. He's quiet and understated but an all-round nice guy. But Tomoyo has him beat. She helps Sakura as much as - if not more than - Doug helps Christmas and Kurau. Tomoyo is much more memorable, what with her devotion towards Sakura that would be creepy if she wasn't a prepubescent girl. And Tomoyo is a bigger part of her show. Doug is simply overshadowed by Kurau and Christmas, while Tomoyo manages to work well with both Sakura and Kero while holding her own. Doug is also partially redundant, since Kurau is also an agent, whereas Tomoyo has a monopoly on being Sakura's #1 (and only) fangirl. Nah, Doug is good, but he just doesn't stand up to P.S. I loved Christmas' Seiyuu. Just saying. Group C-27 Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible vs. Rakushun, The Twelve Kingdoms I might get some flack for this, but I hated Rakushun. He was blatantly used as a plot device, just like the travelling performers who just popped up when needed, where needed. Related to this, I don't like how he participated in one of the worst parts of the series, where spoiler[he turns Shoukei from a messed-up "young" lady to a goody two-shoes. Shoukei was sympathetic yet unlikeable, but her character was very well constructed; she was believable. Then five minutes with Rakushun and her entire carefully-crafted personality just changed. Yes, she became a nicer person, but a worse character. There is a difference. It just broke the show for me, because it just undid all the clever and emotional build-up (I squirmed with discomfort when she was about to be ripped apart by that lynch mob).] So yeah, Rakushun actually was a negative character for the show. Suffice to say, Maestro Stresemann wins by default. He also seems really interesting in his own right, and watching the clip has made me want to add his series to my "to watch" list. Group C-28 Mao, Darker Than Black franchise vs. Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game I think that on some level it is unfair for Wakaba to be considered a great supporting character since she almost entirely appears in flashbacks. But, on every other level she deserves to win this matchup. She's just too strong. She motivates main and supporting characters even from beyond the grave, and she is the foundation for the entire plot of the show. My vote goes to Wakaba. Last edited by dtm42 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group C-25
Voting for: Kisuke Urahara, Bleach Based on arguments and the clip, the Fool does still sound like the character I would like more. But I think Urahara sounds like the better supporting character. Group C-26 Voting for: Tomoyo Daidouji, Cardcaptor Sakura I haven't seen any compelling arguments for Doug during this whole thing and so I'll go with Tomoyo, though she isn't super strong herself. Group C-27 Voting for: Maestro Stresemann, Nodame Cantible I didn't vote right away this round because I wasn't sure about this match-up. I'm at a disadvantage as I have only seen half of Twelve Kingdoms. However other arguments have swayed me over this way and I'm pretty sure I'll stick it out. Also, to the person who said that Nodame and Chiaki got where they were but affecting each other, that is true, but I also don't think they would have gotten there without Stresemann affecting them as well. Group C-28 Voting for: Wakaba Tsukishima, Cross Game Jumping on the Wakaba train since she really does sound like an interesting character. I disagree that appearing only in flashbacks should be a detriment since it's clear that she has a profound and lasting influence on the main characters and, as a result, on the plot. |
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