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eaglestorm



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:36 pm Reply with quote
A few observations/questions:

1) Being an English publication, shouldn't priority be given to English titles as opposed to Romaji titles? I do realize that some titles are just not translatable.

2) A mix of Romaji/English in the titles - An example will be the recently added Seikimatsu Occult Gakuin. Wouldn't End Of The Century Occult Academy or Seikimatsu Okaruto Gakuin be more appropriate?

3) Use of diacritical marks such as Hakuōki - Diacritical marks are not native to the English language. And how many can actually pronounce characters such as ō? Wouldn't an alternative such as ou be more appropriate?
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:04 pm Reply with quote
Point 2 is covered by the title submission page:

Quote:
For romaji titles, the language is "Japanese". But if the original title contains katakana approximations of english words, those words should be translated to english instead of romaji. For example, グラビテーション should be translated to "Gravitation" (the intended meaning), not "Gurabiteeshon" (the exact romaji).


In other words, "オカルト" becomes Occult, not Okaruto.


Point 3 is covered by the FAQs.
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Devil Doll



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 656
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:17 pm Reply with quote
eaglestorm wrote:
1) Being an English publication, shouldn't priority be given to English titles as opposed to Romaji titles? I do realize that some titles are just not translatable.
Like this? Or what exactly do you mean by "priority"?
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dormcat
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Joined: 08 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:34 am Reply with quote
eaglestorm wrote:
2) A mix of Romaji/English in the titles - An example will be the recently added Seikimatsu Occult Gakuin. Wouldn't End Of The Century Occult Academy or Seikimatsu Okaruto Gakuin be more appropriate?

Shiroi Hane has answered the second part of your question; I'd answer the first part.

While seikimatsu (世紀末) literally means "the end of the century," it is not an official English title and other combinations of words in English can mean the same thing. The romaji title stands as the main title unless an official English title has been announced.
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eaglestorm



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:39 am Reply with quote
When I mentioned priority, I'm not referring to any specific series but in general, where there are many series where there are alternative titles listed in English while the main title remains in romaji. Of course, unless those were not verified/official. Which brings up the question of why they are alternative titles.

In reference to 2), again I was just using an example since I noticed the official site listing the title as 世紀末 Occult Academy, and was curious as to why the combination was used/listed since it is not only inconsistent (as opposed to using Seikimatsu Occult Academy, for example) but also doesn't explain the meanings of the title. Which again goes back to using English titles.

As for 3), while I do understand the need for a standard, the point I was trying to make still stands. Why follow a standard that is not native to the English language? You certainly do not learn to read or pronounce diacritical marks as part of the English curriculum, especially in High School or prior to that.

There are alternative letters that can be used to approximate the words. With the majority of the target audience being in their teens (I would assume), and these are certainly not natural to the English-speaking populations, the usage will require a study of such characters. Which I'd think the majority would not hazard to do.

Thanks for addressing my questions, all the same.
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:29 am Reply with quote
eaglestorm wrote:
Why follow a standard that is not native to the English language?

Because this is a website about Japanese animation. Period.

eaglestorm wrote:
With the majority of the target audience being in their teens (I would assume), and these are certainly not natural to the English-speaking populations, the usage will require a study of such characters. Which I'd think the majority would not hazard to do.

Just wait for an official English title and a dub, then.
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eaglestorm



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:05 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
eaglestorm wrote:
Why follow a standard that is not native to the English language?

Because this is a website about Japanese animation. Period.

That may be so BUT this site is an English publication intended for English-speaking audiences. That convention may be relevant if the site contents are targeted towards a more advanced form of literary materials, where the audiences will be more liable to have knowledge of such. Of which, anime certainly isn't.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not belittling a form of entertainment, of which I am a fan of. I'm just stating my opinion of adhering to a standard/convention which may not be optimal.

From the tone of your reply, it seems you're not willing to have an open discussion where the opinions are not in line with the site's present structure. So, I won't pursue the matter any further.
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Dan42
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:13 pm Reply with quote
Priority *is* given to English titles whenever possible, but sometimes there is no authoritative English title so we use the Japanese title. Also there may be cases where at first there was no authoritative English title, but it was submitted later on by a user and there simply hasn't been any opportunity/awareness for staff to promote that alternative title to main.

And I think you're overestimating the supposed difficulty of using macrons. Those who don't understand macrons will simply read the letter as "o", which is at least more accurate than the "ou" sound found in english words like "house". Not to mention that Revised Hepburn is the most common, authoritative, and english-like way of romanizing Japanese. It was created by an American so it's as "native" as it gets. And if it's good enough for wikipedia I don't see why we shouldn't use it. Or are you saying en.wikipedia.org is not aimed at an English audience? Razz
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dormcat
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:55 am Reply with quote
eaglestorm wrote:
That may be so BUT this site is an English publication intended for English-speaking audiences. That convention may be relevant if the site contents are targeted towards a more advanced form of literary materials, where the audiences will be more liable to have knowledge of such. Of which, anime certainly isn't.

The Encyclopedia exists as a reference and a learning tool (and has been cited, despite not in formal ways), not a place to brag about laziness. I strongly suggest and encourage users of this database to improve themselves by researching or asking (after you've done sufficient researching with no positive result). I couldn't even identify hiragana other than "の" before I became a regular submitter of this website six years ago, and I've received not a single day of Japanese language lesson.

eaglestorm wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I'm not belittling a form of entertainment, of which I am a fan of. I'm just stating my opinion of adhering to a standard/convention which may not be optimal.

As far as I know you are the first to complain the macron letter ō. Like Dan said, it is more likely for someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the romanization of Japanese to pronounce ō like "hole," which would be far better than ou in "cloud." Macron ō is also used in most English dictionaries for long vowel of o, so I'd say most native English speakers are familiar with that symbol.

eaglestorm wrote:
From the tone of your reply, it seems you're not willing to have an open discussion where the opinions are not in line with the site's present structure. So, I won't pursue the matter any further.

First, I'm afraid that unless you could present VERY good reasonings, I see no need to change the current system that works quite well. Second, I'm afraid that your reasonings were quite weak. Third, I'm afraid that your are not the person who evaluates whether your reasonings are weak or strong. Twisted Evil

Dan42 wrote:
Or are you saying en.wikipedia.org is not aimed at an English audience? Razz

Quoted for truth.
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doc-watson42
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1709
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:45 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
Like Dan said, it is more likely for someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the romanization of Japanese to pronounce ō like "hole," which would be far better than ou in "cloud." Macron ō is also used in most English dictionaries for long vowel of o, so I'd say most native English speakers are familiar with that symbol.

I'm a native United States citizen (I specify, since Canadians say they are Americans too), and while I don't know what current curricula are like, I learned about macrons (and breves) in about the second grade—certainly in early elementary school. (I am another Encyclopedia contributor who prefers macrons over other methods of indicating double length vowels in Japanese.)
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Shiroi Hane
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Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:42 am Reply with quote
I first came across macrons in the pronunciation guide of a dictionary. At the time I'd been working on a new alphabet of my own to do away with all the ambiguous spelling in English and miffed to find out it already existed. We were never taught them in school and the first place I ever made use of them in earnest was on Wikipedia, although I personally prefer and championed the use of a more wapuro style i.e. おお>oo and おう>ou, but since macrons won I've had to get used to them. The only big problem with macrons is entering the flipping things - Wikipedia has a character insertion thing on the edit pages which makes it easier but here I use a notepad file with a list of them in (since finding them in charmap is a pain).
What I really can't stand is romanisation schemes that use "oo" for all long "o"s - I have a Japanese learning book that does that and it really annoys (I also have a book says to pronounce "a" as in hot which had me scratching me head a while till I realised you had to do it with a strong American accent...)
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EmperorBrandon
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Joined: 04 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:12 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:

What I really can't stand is romanisation schemes that use "oo" for all long "o"s - I have a Japanese learning book that does that and it really annoys


The textbook I had for Japanese in college was like that too. It is rather annoying.
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eaglestorm



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:34 pm Reply with quote
When I started the thread, it was because I was puzzled by the aforementioned issues and seek clarifications. But it has turned into more of a debate than an answer-finding. Laughing

Dan42 wrote:

...Not to mention that Revised Hepburn is the most common, authoritative, and english-like way of romanizing Japanese. It was created by an American so it's as "native" as it gets. And if it's good enough for wikipedia I don't see why we shouldn't use it. Or are you saying en.wikipedia.org is not aimed at an English audience? Razz

I do think most of you are missing my point. Citing Revised Hepburn, who created it, the Wiki or the dictionary is completely irrelevant. Just because those are English publications and created by a native English-speaker doesn't make it any more "native". Diacritical marks are not "native" to the English language. If I'd to create a publications on, say certain aspect of Russians in English and it is regarded as the authoritative works on those aspects for the native English speaking populations, it still wouldn't make those any more English or any more native.

Those who would use those articles/publications to research the said subject and those who watches anime, although not mutually exclusive, might as well be so. These publications may be geared towards the English audiences but they definitely are not geared towards the average anime-viewer.

The point I'm trying to get across is the target audience, This will comprise mainly of early teens. They would have no idea what creature a Revised Hepburn is, nor would they search the dictionary or Wiki to look up a long-winded explanation, as I presume some of us would.

dormcat wrote:

As far as I know you are the first to complain the macron letter ō. Like Dan said, it is more likely for someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the romanization of Japanese to pronounce ō like "hole," which would be far better than ou in "cloud." Macron ō is also used in most English dictionaries for long vowel of o, so I'd say most native English speakers are familiar with that symbol.

And no, most native English-speaker are not familiar with diacritical marks. They may have seen it but they are certainly not familiar with them. How often would you use them in an everyday life, even including writing essays or thesis? Personal experience, I seldom employed them, in my years in post-secondary educations or in the workplace except in rare instances. And as far as I know, my colleagues never use them liberally either. Those instances are limited to references to works by foreign authors or usages of borrowed words.

And I would challenge anyone to state that they are common usage in their writings (romanizations notwithstanding).

dormcat wrote:

First, I'm afraid that unless you could present VERY good reasonings, I see no need to change the current system that works quite well. Second, I'm afraid that your reasonings were quite weak. Third, I'm afraid that your are not the person who evaluates whether your reasonings are weak or strong. Twisted Evil

I do not expect to see a change if the power-that-be doesn't think it requires it. As I had mentioned, it was an answer-finding thread. Just because you find my reasoning weak doesn't means that they are. It is merely your opinion. And my opinion that your defense of the standard used is rather weak is also merely my opinion.

I'm not the one to evaluate my reasonings? Huh? The post is to find answers for those issues that puzzles me. What does that statement have to do with anything? If what I had stated in my 1st post doesn't merit any changes, then so be it. That point is almost as asinine as it comes and just stating the obvious

doc-watson42 wrote:

I'm a native United States citizen (I specify, since Canadians say they are Americans too), and while I don't know what current curricula are like, I learned about macrons (and breves) in about the second grade—certainly in early elementary school. (I am another Encyclopedia contributor who prefers macrons over other methods of indicating double length vowels in Japanese.)

Erm, I'm Canadian and I certainly do not regard or call myself Americans. Nor do I know anyone personally who would. We are North Americans but certainly not Americans Very Happy

I do applaud your school for teaching those so early in the curriculum. But those are certainly the exceptions rather than the rule. At that age, we were still learning to rhyme A B C D E F G, H I J K... rather than A B C D E F G macron, H I J K breve. I doubt few schools will teach those so early in the years. I certainly were not taught those until very much later.
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Shiroi Hane
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:54 pm Reply with quote
Eaglestorm: we're not dealing with "native English" names here. Are you saying that no English publication should use diacritics in foreign names and words like "Renée", "El Niño" etc. because not everyone knows how to pronounce them?
As Dan said, most people who don't know what they mean will just ignore them anyway and still understand the basic pronunciation of the word - it is better than completely ignoring the difference between long and short vowels which is common when romanising (the credits on English anime DVDs nearly always do this) as the information is still retained.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:20 pm Reply with quote
eaglestorm wrote:
When I started the thread, it was because I was puzzled by the aforementioned issues and seek clarifications.

I do think most of you are missing my point. Citing Revised Hepburn, who created it, the Wiki or the dictionary is completely irrelevant.

When you started the thread you didn't merely ask for clarifications, you also argued against the use of diacritics. Despite that, I *did* provide an explanation for why we use macrons; i.e. because it's the standard and authoritative way of romanizing Japanese. So you think authoritative standards are irrelevant and your opinion is more relevant? Get some perspective, kiddo.
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