Forum - View topicNEWS: Nick Simmons' Incarnate Halted Over Alleged Bleach Plagiarism
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jgreen
 Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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I agree with a lot of what Chris Butcher said on this subject:
Everyone is ranting about the similarities to Bleach and Hellsing and what have you, but simply the fact that he combined those things makes it NOT plagiarism, but something new. Sure, it may be really unoriginal and really lame, but there's lots of unoriginal and lame comics out there. I'm guessing the main sticking point here, though, is that a lot of artists create lame derivations of existing characters, and a lot of artists trace other people's artwork, but Incarnate is the first example I can think of where an artist did both from the same series, and an insanely popular one at that. Also, this article by Deb Aoki (which summarizes the whole Twitter storm that erupted re: Nick Simmons) brings up a good point: Nick Simmons had three art assistants on this book -- Nam Kin, Ben Harvet & Shi Hua Wong. What jobs did they do vs. what Simmons did himself? If one of them was responsible for layouts and decided to start tracing from their Bleach collection, I think everyone might owe Nick Simmons one big fat apology. |
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Quark
 Posts: 710 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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You know, if he had just used Bleach and Hellsing as inspiration for his characters, I wouldn't be bothered. But it's the fact that he is tracing panels...not even just one panel, but a whole pile of them. For me, that is the entire issue. Working out your own drawings is difficult, but tracing is so easy that anyone, even if they had no drawing skills to speak of, could do it. That right there is what differentiates what he's doing, from the people selling their fanart. Fanart is a whole different kettle of fish, because, even though they are using someone elses characters, the rest of the drawing is coming solely from them. They are the ones who have to work out the kinks and details of the drawing, from the pose, the style of drawing, clothing, colours, everything. A lot of people have worked for many years (and are still working) to become better artists, even if some of them only choose to draw fanart (although if they choose to do that, they are selling themselves short). It still does take skill, a lot more than tracing does. Not only that, but a lot of fanartists I've seen actually have their own style, and don't just mimic the style of the original creator when drawing pictures of their characters. Hell, I've seen manga fanart from very famous American comic artists, and their take on these characters is very different, because they're drawing them in their unique style. So yes, even if the drawing is derivitive, it's infinitely more creative than someone who just takes another persons drawing and traces over the whole thing. The first thing that shot through my mind when I saw those panels was "Man! Drawing would have been so much easier if I had just traced everything. Here I was trying to figure out stuff on my own like a loser." |
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Takeyo
 Posts: 736 |
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What about these? Embracing Love's Nitta Acknowledges Tracing Photo Chinese TV Animation Accused of Copying 5cm per Second Taiwanese TV Show Accused of Copying Zetsubō, K-On! |
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TC-man
 Posts: 118 |
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Well, you are actually contradicting yourself by saying the following: 1. combining two different work makes no plagiarism, because something new is established because of that; 2. But at the same time you say that Nick Simmons' work may be really unoriginal and really lame; in copyright laws derivative works are protected if that work is original; if you say it's unoriginal then its not new at all, therefore it's not protected according the copyright law. 3. Also the fact that there may be many lame and unoriginal mangas/comics does not mean plagiarism is allowed. As for the argument that Nick Simmons has 3 assistants and their contribution in this, to me it does not matter anymore (yeah, it may be the best defence for him to say that the other three have done it, he's totally innocent etc....), since Nick Simmons hires them himself, and Nick Simmons has his own responsibility to check/verify all the works himself he is about to launch on the market (remember he is the main writer/artist of his own comic book and the other three are just assistants); if it's not good enough he can make corrections before releasing it. |
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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I don't proport to be an expert on copyright law, but I'm fairly certain that there is a difference between tracing (completely illegal) and using a character design as inspiration (which as far as I know is not illegal at all), or taking someone else's character and drawing your own take on it (technically illegal in certain cases).
From what I understand, copyright law only protects the actual lines on the page. For works of narrative, it is the word for word writing in the book (which is why you are supposed to cite sources when you quote them), and for art, it is the line for line drawing on the page. And only applies that far. What protects the characters in the story is what is called a "trademark," so fan artists only infringe on a trademark, not a copyright, when they sell their own artistic take on another artist's character in an artist alley, and only if that original artist bothered to trademark that character in the first place (trademarks are not granted immediately upon the creation of the work the way copyrights are). The problem with this specific case is that it seems clear this guy traced actual characters, actual panels out of Japanese manga, changed a couple of details and passed it off as his own. Not only has he violated copyright law by tracing, he's tried to take credit for the work as his own, which I personally find to be incredibly disrespectful. It's not like he was some high school kid who loved Bleach so much he traced Zaraki onto his notebook cover and told his friends, "hey, look how cool this Zaraki I traced onto my notebook is." The teenager is still tracing something, he's still violating a copyright technically, but he isn't claiming he drew it himself or claiming the character is something he created himself. Nor is he profiting in any financial way from showing it to anyone. But the issue isn't a "criminal" one, it is civil law. The government isn't going to come and arrest and imprison anyone if they notice this happen, the copyright and trademark owner has to have a problem with it and file a complaint. This usually begins with a cease and desist order (check fanfiction.net's list of authors who have specifically asked for their stories and trademarks to not be used in fiction posted on the site), and can escalate into a court case, particularly if some sort of profit was gained by the accused. Companies like Disney are notorious for denying anyone the right to violate their copyrights and trademarks, even when the offending parties aren't profiting at all from it. It's really all at the discretion of the owner of those copyrights and trademarks. We'll have to wait and see what Kubo's interest on the issue is, and how it's handled legally from here. It's actually rather expensive and difficult to try copyright infringement, since the laws are so vague to begin with. It has to be obvious, and when you add international copyright law issues into the mix, it might be more trouble than it's worth to bother. What I see happening, though, is this publisher pulling the title in good faith, so as not to damage its reputation, even if they think they wouldn't actually lose a court case, and Kubo not pursuing the issue legally because he really doesn't feel like dragging it out or that he was damaged in any real way by it happening. I see it being embarrassing for the publisher, Mr. Simmons (and his dad) and inconvenient, but maybe a little flattering, for Mr. Kubo in the end. |
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LaFreccia
 Posts: 324 |
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I agree with pretty much everything you said, except for one thing. In the US, Kubo might not be the copyright/trademark owner. It is common for publishing companies to receive such rights as trustees of the artists. As a result Kubo's opinion might not be relevant. |
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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Perhaps not legally relevant, but I bet you that Viz wouldn't want to go against his wishes. it's not like they own the rights to Bleach indefinitely or that there could not be damage between Viz and their Japanese licensor for Bleach if they chose to do something against his wishes and pissed him off. |
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Weazul-chan
 Posts: 625 Location: Michigan |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Well, that first one is definitely much more minor. I mean, it is copying the pose only which I agreed is somewhat common. It's also creating a drawn image from a photo so there's a fairly major modification there. More than anything, the problem there is one of technical legality. I don't see why it would generally be a huge deal if not for that. It falls much closer to inspiration/homage than plagiarism. A big difference is that they appear to have simply borrowed a single image among a whole huge variety of their own ideas. Where as in this case there are numerous copied images, and plenty else that seems to have been ripped off. Overall, this whole thing just reeks of being a rip off. As for the second, it's certainly blatant but also sort of different. I mean, it seems more like laziness that plagiarism. They're just backgrounds. Of course they still take a lot of work and skill to create. However, they appear to be fairly standard and generic images. They're not stealing anything particularly unique or taking someones ideas or concepts as much. It's sort of the opposite of this where he's doing the practical work himself but stealing the concepts and ideas. Neither is okay of course but I find the latter bothers me a lot more. Also, when it's a whole production group rather than a single individual, it feels more like they're just putting out a product. When it's a single individual there is clearly much more of an element of artistic ownership. They're making more of a statement that this is their own personal creation. I can't say about the third one. The videos are all gone so I have no idea what specifically they did or how bad it was. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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http://blog.woixv.com/?p=730 Left: 我愛黑澀棒棒堂 with YouTube player interface Right: Zan Sayonara Zetsubō Sensei |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay, I'm not really sure what you're directing me to do here. The videos of their thing still don't work. I see the series of pics at the bottom.
If that's it then it's relatively minor. They've obviously ripped off that one little series of images with the hands. It's so brief though and they've totally changed the colors and presumably everything surrounding it. I mean...I'd almost be inclined to think of it as an homage. Maybe it's not but it's pretty minor in any case. Also though, as I mentioned with some of the others, it appears that it's just that one bit they've stolen and while I'm not sure how it figures into their overall show but at least it seems like there is a whole live action show presumably of their own making. It's not like Incarnate which not only includes several cases of blatant plagiarism, it overall just screams: I've mashed together Bleach and Hellsing and recopied it under my own name. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Yes, yes it has. In fact, there have been mentions of plagiarism here that go beyond just the couple frames this guy did. Now, I again want to make it clear that I don't condone copying and I think Simmons was clearly in the wrong. I'm just pointing out that when it's not a US artist, people seem to care a heck of a lot less. Plus, his dad might be high profile, but he's not. Heck, even his dad is pretty much a has been at this point. Anyways, this little article demonstrates a number of previous instances, though still not all, and some are questionable. Still, it does highlight a number of the higher profile instances in the past few years, including direct copies from manga to manga or obvious trace art from various photos. Then there's past articles like this little one, and this bigger one that did get a decent reaction, and this, and this, and this, and that's all just a small sample of what's out there. The manga world is no stranger to plagiarism, though few art forms really are. Claims are often as blatant as obvious rips to obviously tracing photographs or other art forms (also copyrighted works). These have all occurred between different Japanese artists, or people from the US, or China, Korea, Russia and all kinds of places. It happens everywhere, but it just struck me that the reaction in this case is full of venom and far harsher than it normally is when these things surface. |
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samuelp
Industry Insider
Posts: 2243 Location: San Antonio, USA |
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Well, there are two factors for that: 1. The work that was stolen from was Bleach, a "mega-hit" with a ton of very passionate fans. 2. The person accused is the son of a famous rock star, and so everyone assumes he got where he was primarily because of that instead of talent. I.e. "the picture fits" into the easy caricature of the spoiled son getting ahead in the world thanks to his father's name and feeling like he can get away with anything. It's kind of sad, but in this case his father's name is going to hurt this guy incredibly. If he was just some random artist I could see him trying to make a comeback in a few years, but because "gene simmon's son is a plagerist" I doubt he'll ever work as a comic artist again. |
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Lady Multi
Posts: 675 |
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We decided to make a petition on the matter. Feel free to sign it and pass it on:
http://www.petitiononline.com/natsplag/petition.html |
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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I will sign a petition that calls for the removal of petition online from the internet so I don't have to look at another petition again.
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