Forum - View topicNEWS: "Made in Japan" to fight anime piracy
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kgptzac
 Posts: 22 Location: Neither Heaven nor Hell |
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Buying bootlegs are stupid. it is like: you don't give money to the good guys, but give the money to the bad guys. both you and the good guys lost the money.
And from the news. I hope there will be less bootlegs, and at the same time, hoping that it won't bring any bad to our beloved fansub. |
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C_Brightshadow
 Posts: 81 Location: In a Mod-Starbridge running away from pirates |
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Here's how you solve the money problem, you don't have the money, you can't buy it. Go buy something more useful. As for me, this translates to only a few manga books a year and maybe one or two DVDs.
As for the "made in japan," not so good when you're selling on-line.
Can someone explain to me what a Netflix account is? |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Don't used "being poor" as an excuse to steal. You act like buying bootleg is okay just because you're poor... Most of us are poor and we try to use our money wisely also. You don't know what's right and what's wrong...then go find a religion. Anime is just a hobby, yet some people act like they have the "right" to watch this episode because it hasn't come to the U.S. Popular series in japan will usually get licensed.
If the anime isn't available in your country, then that means you probably don't have the right to watch it in the first place. So if you have to wait 2-3 years for it to get licensed, than I guess you have to wait and find some other thing to watch or do. Again, anime is just a hobby that entertain people...it's not essential to life. If you need food or clothes, than I could sympathize what you're whining about. Bootleg are illegal...fansub are illegal. If fansub want to promote dvd, then just sub the first 5 episode or so...not the entire series. If 20,000 people actually download fansub, only about 5,000 or less out of those 20,000 would probably buy the legit dvd when it's released. I think fansub hurt the industry more than it help now a days... Last edited by darkhunter on Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jfrog
 Posts: 925 Location: Seattle |
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More importantly: Even if you don't care about giving money to the good guys, the bad guys are usually involved in organized crime. But who cares about that as long as I get to watch Berserk? |
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Spooky Electric
Posts: 7 |
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Anyway, my thoughts:
I don't condone bootlegging in any way. Seems alot of you are "too poor" to buy anime. Watch what's on TV, or get a new hobby. <----- Sounds way too harsh! |
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Umm... yeah.. so tell me how that isn't an argument, the fact is the majority of fansubs are NOT that adept, there are several that are, but there are many more that can't translate worth crap. Secondly, how would you know who is superior when it comes to the translation? Can you speak Japanese fluently? If not then how would you know who does a better job? (by the way I'm not fluent, but I know enough to recognize a crappy translation job from a good one)
Actually 6 is more like the norm. Quantity has nothing to do with it, quality does. If you can make a series be 6 eps long and fully tell the story you're trying to get across, then that's better than a 26 ep series that doesn't get the point across. Also, don't forget that quite a bit of anime is broadcast on pay-tv in Japan. So the Japanese don't get those series for free either. The point is that if it isn't shown on TV where you are, then TOUGH, go buy the dvds like everyone else who truly loves anime. As far as time waiting for a series to be released.. we are now enjoying some of the fastest turnaround times from licensing to release, and every original broadcast to licensing. We used to have to wait years to license a series, but now they are being licensed before they are even finished airing in Japan. I'd say that's pretty good! |
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pcoaster
Posts: 5 |
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@darkhunter
Well, it's not that I'm whining about anything, I only state simple facts about why I don't think that fansubs are bad in any way. It's not like I can't live without it, its simply that I don't really see any good argument why I shouldn't watch fansubs, and how my doing so should hurt the anime industry. I even think its good to do so. That's all.
I respect your opinion, but at the same time I think you are totally wrong. I even think there'd be less than 5000 out 20000 that would buy the dvds, but just think about how many of these guys would buy the dvds at all if they didn't watch the series beforehand? I don't think most of them would even consider buying the dvds of something they only read reviews about. Sure there are guys like this, and I respect this kind of devotion, but they are clearly no majority. Not when the prices are that high compared to other series on dvd (e.g. "normal" tv series). Don't get me wrong, I think people making profit of bootlegs or even by selling fansubs are bad and shouldn't be supported at all, especially not if its only because one could save some bucks by doing so. @Kazuki-san
Its not the "right", its a privilege provided by the kind souls of the fansubbing community. And this privilege is tolerated by most of the japanese anime studios because they know they are profitting from it. The audience grows, and more people interested in these shows are created, possible buyers, and people propagating the goodness of a show to others and thereby even furthering the market, being the watchers of a tv-broadcast or the buyers of merchandise and dvds.
Yeah, and many popular series don't. So why not be happy about the people breaching the barrier for us by translating anime which might never see a western audience elseways?
No, I'm certainly not fluent in japanese, but I claim to be able to distinguish a good translation from a bad one. Like you seem to do. It seems you don't watch too many fansubs today simply because you don't think its ok to do so (which I respect, but don't quite understand) and so I tend to say that I just know more about this nowadays then you do, no offense.
I never said anything about quality. I know there are some OVAs out there which are absolutley great and have only 3 eps (or 6, if you prefer, doesn't really matter). Or some anime movies, which are released on 1 dvd only and are really wonderful.
It seems I didn't say clearly what I meant - I already said that there are many anime pay-tv channels in japan, and I never said they'd get it "for free" like you just did. I also said that it's not ok to not be able to pay for anime-pay-tv where I live a) because one can't get these channels here anyway and b) because I couldn't understand enough of it even if I did. I would pay for pay-tv though, as its not that horrendous overprized (imho) than the average animedvd. I don't think you could say that you truly love anime just becaue you spend a lot of bucks for it. Sure one might say its all about the money, but for all intellectual works the audience is what matters most. I think something great will always be rewarded, as long as there are not too many rip-offs out there stealing money from the real distributors by selling stolen goods. That's my opinion as I still believe in the good of all men. And afaik most of the income for the average anime is made in japan itself, so its not hurting them if there are people watching the tv-anime for free while its being braodcast and maybe buy the series they liked whenever later they are available in their own country.
You are right on this it really gets faster nowadays, but again only for the US which, although some might tend to think so, is not the only country out there... |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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I think most people that download the fansub will not go buy the dvd (if they download full series) because they have already seen the series. I know some people like that.
Actually I watch a great many fansubs (of unlicensed series), which is why I can speak of fansub quality today as well as quality in the past, and the two are not equal.
I do spend a great deal on anime, but that's not why I love it. You say the audience matters most, but what of those who spent their time to create the works you're enjoying for free? Should they not be rewarded? |
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Onizuka666
Posts: 266 Location: U.K |
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I am a little concerned.
I love fan subs. I get to see anime as it comes out in Japan that way. I would hate to have to wait 2 to 4 years for an American company to obtain the rights and sub/dub it then release it. All of the Japanese import goodies (stuffed toys are only available for a short time these days) are almost gone by the time I am obessed with a title enough to hunt them down. I depend on the fansub preview so I can get a hold of good anime paraphanalia that won't be available by the time it gets to the US. Just so you know I still by the Licenced DVD's (I happen to love extras) even if I have the series on Fansubbed VHS or VCD. Plus there are alot of titles that are just never picked up by American companies. It doesn't make them bad just unobtainable by normal methods. This concerns me more than anything. ----------------------------------------------------------- I'd have to agree with PCoaster and Pandorina on this one. I don't agree with bootlegs personally, but I believe fan subs play a vital part in the industry, even though it's a silent part. Fansub DL are a good way of finding out what fans like, and what series fans would want to pay for on DVD. Demonising fansubs isn't right because they are fans just like you and without them we wouldn't be enjoying the anime/manga boom we are now. When a series is licensed we might not have seen all of it, but usaully enough to be able to say "yes I really wanna buy that on DVD." The series is then pulled from the DL sites list, fans would do this if they didn't care. There are a minority that will keep a series DL til the end once licensed, by they are few and will usually face their site closing down. This I can understand. Fansubbing is about watching and understand anime in it's purist form that you might not ever otherwise see, not about making money like the bootlegers do. Fansubs are kind of like test driving a car before you buy, to give you a taster and a feel of how good or bad it is, and if you wanna buy or not. Or like a demo game cd before the full games release. It's a give and take set up, companies will turn a blind eye to you downloading and sampling a series but once that series is licensed they expect you to stop fansubbing it, and rightly so if it's gonna turn up on DVD. I have no problem with this since there is so much other unlicensed anime about to watch it's become a big adventure of discovery. I've seen enough of FMA amongst others, and have become a big fans of the series. In return I'll be buying the series on DVD, and all the 5 games once that hit the u.s. My hope is for FMA manga to be released too. I intend to keep these standards and never buy a bootleg. For those who like to say fansubs are theft I disagree, because if not for the net people would still just resort to old school fansub tactics on VHS, or use contacts in japan to mail video tapes etc. I'd rather the likes of ADV etc monitor what series we are downloading and wanna see on DVD, and get it right with feedback than not. This industry would not survive long if they just released any old anime, so atleast with fansubs we get a say and our voice is heard by them. Combine this with other feedback at conventions and they know what we want and like. Amen to that. Fansubs on a cheap cds are no substitute for a sweet ass DVD boxset with plenty of extras, so in that respect people will always buy DVD in the end. True fans know this and will back the industry in one way or another. As for what is selected for release, we need to have poular series make lot of money in order to bring over the niche titles. Personally I'd like to see more sports anime like Slam Dunk, Prince of Tennis, Whistle and Dan Doh. Titles like this are vital to show anime and mangas diversity and bring in new fans. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Onizuka666:
Personally, I was not demonizing fansubs, in fact I do enjoy downloading unlicensed anime and do all the time. The problem I have is with crappy translators of fansubs, which there are MANY out there. Those are the one's I have a problem with. It's nice that they want to bring us a series before it is licensed here, but if you can't do it right then don't do it, and instead let those who can do it right make the fansub. There are several (I can think of 5 or 6 off the top of my head) sites that continue to release licensed anime fansubs, and in some cases, DVD rips of the R1 release! In fact there are several fansub groups, that although they take licensed anime off of their site, continue to distribute it through IRC. Of course companies turn a blind eye to unlicensed releases, because until they acquire the license, they have no legal standing to do anything about it (except for the Japanese copyright holder that is). As far as fansubs being no alternative to the real deal, I agree wholeheartedly. The problem with that is, while "true fans" ,as you say, will most likely go out and buy the DVD, there are many other "fans" who will not. Some have excuses such as "I don't have enough money", yet plenty of us are in a low-income situation and still are able to buy legal releases. (this comment was not pointed at any specific individual) |
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pcoaster
Posts: 5 |
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@Kazuki-san
And I don't blame you for having that opinion. I on the other hand think that even if people have a full series fansubbed the ones that really liked it do buy the dvds. Surely not everyone, but I still think more than would have without the fansubs. I have a certain problem with many animes out there where I have the opinion that the ending ruined most of the series. These are the ones I wouldn't want to waste my money on, but I can't tell so if I didn't see the ending, right? Ok, it could be seen as unfair if I liked the series first, but didn't buy it because I came to dislike it later because of an unrewarding ending, but I personally think of the ending as one of the most important aspects for the quality of an anime. So if an ending is ruined, I won't buy the dvds. Its as simple as that.
Ok, then I'll take back what I said earlier. It seems our opinions differ here, but imho the majority of fansubbing groups is doing an evenly good job to the official ones and some an even better one. Especially the timing and editing of a series is nearly always better, even from the "lower" groups. In fact it is quite sad what some license-holding companys create after obtaining a (quite expensive) license on an anime-series. Especially what is brought out in my country makes you wonder if the guy creating the subs only spent 20 minutes for timing an entire movie while being 10 minutes on the toilet during that time...  (yeah, its that bad). And some (while not the major ones) US-companys are nearly as bad. There is an trend to the better recognizable in the us in that matter, so its not too late yet I guess. But for my country... *sigh*
That's exactly what I didn't intend to say. I surely think they should be rewared, but to decide who earns to be rewarded and who not I'd like to have seen a whole series (because of my point earlier about the ending). Which brings forth the following problem: I would be willing to give a certain amount of money just for watching, regardless if I like (and keep liking) it or not, like the japanese do (pay-tv/commercials), but am not able to do so. So the anime studios that produce anime I don't like enough to buy the dvds don't profit from me in anyway. And that's where I know I am being unfair, but I can't do anything about it except maybe learning japanese and moving to japan. Or at least I don't know of any other way, so if you got any suggestions on that I'd be happy to hear them!
As it should be, where would we be if companies started sueing people for watching something they (the companies) don't even own? And even the US-companies can't deny the use of fansubs in their chosing what license to buy. It appears I did get the wrong impression of you as I really thought you'd "demonize" fansubs alltogether. Guess I was wrong, so sorry for misinterpreting you. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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The problem with "are fansubs good for the industry" is that we're dealing with a function that can never be solved, because we'll never know the actual numbers involved to any significant degree.
There are a number of variables that really can't be easily counted: a) # of fansub viewers b) # of fansub viewers who, because of the fansub, buy the licensed DVD c) # of fansub viewers who, because of the fansub, do not buy the licensed DVD d) # of fansub viewers who, regardless of the fansub, would buy the licensed DVD e) # of fansub viewers who, regardless of the fansub, would never buy the licensed DVD Ideally, provided that (B>C), sales of the DVD would increase due to the fansub. Vice-versa, if (C>B) then sales would decrease due to the fansub.. but (as evidenced above) there are some people who will always buy the DVD and some people who would never buy the DVD, which also complicates matters. For a standard BT file, usually you can get an estimate of the total number of downloads from the BT host.. but BT isn't the only way a file propagates; people share via IRC, FTP and HTTP, as well as P2P programs and other delivery methods. CD burning, club and convention screenings also account for significant portions of fansub viewing. I can only guesstimate that BT accounts for about 1/2 to 1/3rd of all fansub viewings over a 1 month period from the time of release, depending on the popularity of the show, length of time the torrent is available, etc. So if we take a Naruto episode from early last month, we're looking at around 90,000 total BT downloads, which propagates to, say, 180k viewers over the course of the month. Of those 180k viewers, most posess a copy of the fansub, although a minority does not (watching at a friends house, or at a club meeting, etc). Some temporarily hold the copy (watch it once or twice, and then delete it), while others burn it to CD and add it to their collection. So we have two fansub viewer populations (under "A") to consider: Those who have the fansub and keep it for an extended period of time, and Those who have the fansub only temporarily (either because they did not posess the Naruto fansub, or because they watched it at a friend's house and thus did not retain a copy). There are a number of motives for keeping (or not keeping) fansubs, such as: Intent to re-watch, "collection building", quality of the release, expected availability of a local language version, and so forth. Unfortunately, all of this is in the private sector, and as such it's difficult to get clear information about ANY of this stuff. We have circumstantial evidence that, historically, that people both DO and DON'T replace fansubs. |
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cookie
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 2460 Location: Do not contact me for support. |
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Know what? I'm bored. Let's do a little bit of research even though it's OT for this thread. ;p
The classic argument for fansubs hurting sales is Matt Greenfield's comment a few years back about Nuku Nuku VHS 3 (OVA 5-6) selling more than VHS 1-2 (OVA 1-2 and 3-4, respectively), which relies on the belief that VHS 1-2 were both sold at the same price point and marketted in the same fashion as 3. It also relies on the belief that the first 4 OVAs were widely distributed via fansub while the latter 2 OVAs were not. For the Nuku Nuku OVAs, 4 groups translated at least episodes 1-3, while 3 groups translated 4-6 (Nexus Studio's release comes from 6/1993 and was the most popular fansub translation of 1-3). Nexus and Central Anime were the two big names for Nuku Nuku subs, and both handled separate parts of the OVA series. Nuku Nuku LD 3 was released in Japan on 3/24/1993 (each LD had 1 OVA on it. Since it's an OVA this would've been the first time anyone would've seen it, and thus been able to start translation on it). Nuku Nuku LD 6 was released on 5/25/1994. Assuming CA did the same thing as Nexus, they began giving tapes to distributors around 7/1994. Nuku VHS 1 was announced (by DLW, via RAAM) on 10/3/1994 (thanks Google archive!) A British English dubbed version existed in 1994, by Crusader Video, but no one in NA seems to have cared. ADV's Nuku Nuku 1 (OVA 1-2) release was in April 1995. Assuming that distributors for both NS and CA stopped distributing Nuku Nuku when it was announced, that means... Nuku Nuku 1-3 was available for 16 months. Nuku Nuku 4-6 was available for 3 months. As I recall (my memory is getting fuzzy) the difference between sales of VHS 1-2 and VHS 3 were in the "thousands". If fansubs accounted for the difference, then the difference of 13 months in VHS fansub propagation yielded a significant drop in commercial sales of the first two VHS of Nuku Nuku. If VHS 1 and 2 sold more or less equally, that also implies that people didn't care enough about watching OVA 4 (on VHS 2) to spend the MSRP $30 to watch it. Instead, they just skipped to OVA 5 (VHS 3) and continued watching from there... which, for Nuku Nuku is fine, because it's not a contiguous storyline. I think it means IF fansubs hurt the industry (and I think they do, since there's no reason for the industry to lie to us.. right? RIGHT?) then the longer the fansub is available, the more people have access to it... and the more people who have access to it, the lower commercial sales will be. That was true during the VHS days. Now we're in a digital age, where propagation is faster, and licensing is quicker.. how does that influence this trend? Got me. I think we need another title other than Nuku where this trend can be clearly seen. Maybe TRSI's Captain Tylor? They did a fansub burning for that show... |
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Cypher-Khan
 Posts: 1 |
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On the subject of bootlegs and fansubs and all that jazz...
I own no bootlegs, fansubs however I am guilty of. Quite simply 'cause I live in Australia and I detest the concept of bi-monthly DVD releases (I cant stand the fact that its going to be 18 months before I can finish the series Juuni Kokki.) They did this with Witch Hunter Robin, I grabbed the series off a friend after buying the first DVD and having liked it. Anyway, point of the story is I've seen the whole thing and I buy it as its released (bought Volume 3 today). Im also a little wierd in the fact that I buy manga in a language I can read (thank you furigana), but not understand (in the most part). I like manga, a great deal in fact and very little of the stuff I want is avaliable in english. So i d/l scans (which I regard the same as d/l fansubs). Anyway, the difference between me and the majority of leechers is that Im buying the Japanese manga. On the plus side, contrasting my (bad) translations with those of the scans is helping my Japanese... (successfully passed semester 1 "Elementary Japanese" at university). Yes, Im rather broke (constantly) but despite that I still manage to spend the occasional paycheck on manga/anime. In that respect, I cant stand people who cry about it costing too much. Im more annoyed by the fact that there isnt enough (give me monthly DVD releases damnit). In short, I dont d/l fansubs... I do borrow from friends... I buy DVDs and Manga. |
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pcoaster
Posts: 5 |
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I think cookie has made it clear that the real numbers to make a actual statement are missing here. But regarding the dropping in sales: I think one has an important thing to consider - the quality of a show, and if its liked by many or not. Just an example, if a "good" show, which people really like for whatever reason, is shown to a greater audience through fansubs, the sales will rise. (This is an assumption of mine based on no real evidence, just on some (my) logic
) On the other hand, if a series is not as good, even to say boring or bad, and fansubs are available for it, the people watchin these fansubs might not buy the dvds anymore because they think the show is simply not ineresting enough. So one might say fansubs hurt bad shows. Still its not sure if even in case the show is not liked by the viewers of fansubs, there still might be fansub-viewers among them who'd buy the dvds, and might not have heard of the show or consiedered the show worth buying beforehand.
Bur as for all of these statements: No numbers here available, and while I think the example of cookie with nuku nuku is a good start, it can't really be relied on in as a representative for the situation today (as he stated himself already). But enough of my fansub chitchat here, have a nice day everyone. |
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Anytime a newbie comes along all you do is nag nag nag.
Although i do own a few bootleg dvds, i mean who doesn't these days. i bet eveyone of you out there owns a few bootleg dvds. I believe in the theory 
but look on the positive side bro, bootleg dvds are not hurting the anime fan base. In fact i think that bootleg dvds are expanding the anime fandom. since they are so cheep. A lot more people are going out and buying anime products WHY?? because they are cheap. WHY ARE THEY CHEAP? because they are pirated. 
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