Forum - View topicSexism in Fate/stay night.
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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What? Clearly she is. Just look at her. How does their relationship even work if she isn't? I mean, it would be no less icky but at least not surprising if it was the other way around but I find it hard to imagine Saber being significantly older than Shiro.
No, I mean in the literal sense. Saber takes physical form and hangs about his house all the time. Archer only appears when Rin needs him. Not to mention, I don't actually recall an instance where Shiro even had a chance to try and stop Archer from fighting initially. By the time they're all working together he's eased up a bit about Saber.
Come on. That's not idealistic. That's just insane. Lancer and Berserker are actively trying to murder him on a regular basis. I've addressed Archer already.
Well, Rin holds her own against Lancer initially. Besides, it's only natural that things start slow. That's how it works. It takes time for the various servants and masters to appear. Besides, it's not like Shiro does all that much on his own either. Anyway, nobody really intentionally sacrificed their own victory. They teamed up with the shared goal of defeating Berserker. It's not like Rin chose for what happens to happen. It just does.
Repeated refusal? Rin doesn't win. Fine. I suppose Illya doesn't either. But then that's with two servants teamed up against her. (Not to mention the issue of her being ten which I've adressed elsewhere). I'd certainly say Saber does fine though. Where is this repeat refusal? In fact, seeing as Saber does succeed and is also said to be the strongest class of servant, doesn't it make sense that she and Shiro manage to beat out the rest make sense?
You were asked why you feel the series is sexist. How exactly do I need to take that into consideration? In a discussion about this that's pretty much square one. Why on earth can't I pick it apart?
No sorry, I don't mean to imply you went in that way. Just that maybe you let some of the initial issues color your interpretation of later events. Of course, that's a weak argument so let me address your point itself.
Ah, but Shiro also comes around. He eventually stops acting so protective and acknowledges Saber's strength. Certainly he doesn't fall entirely into the role of the protected either though. Instead, both Saber and Shiro learn to not but all the burden on them self. They work and fight together and thanks to that they are able to succeed. In fact, I'd say that is one of the prevailing themes of the series. It's not about women needing a man. It's about people in general allowing them self to rely on others. It's through this that Shiro, Saber and Rin are able to succeed. The fact that Shiro, the lead, is male and the other two is female is a mere coincidence.
I can see what you're saying but to be fair, Shiro is probably a lot more emotionally open to begin with. He's determined to protect people but that's different from how Saber is.
So because her relatives against all better judgment forced her into learning magic and fighting in this war, it's not okay when she eventually decides that no, she'd rather just be a normal little girl?
Again though, doesn't everyone need Shiro to save them? As I said before, the only one he doesn't protect is Archer and well...spoiler[Archer ended up dead]. Shiro is the lead character of the series. Of course he saves the day, even sometimes against all odds. As I said about the other plot device, it's pretty common trope of basic storytelling. It's pretty insubstantial to assert sexism just because he's male and a couple of the secondary character are female.
I guess we should just count ourselves lucky the series didn't feature a steering wheel. 
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Skylark
 Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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On a slightly unrelated note:
That is completely false; what evidence do you have to support that she is any older than she looks? It's even stated in the anime that she is a very strong magus despite being such a young age.
He knows and understands perfectly well that Saber is much stronger than he is. He even undergoes training from her and gets his ass handed to him over and over. And that's without her even tapping into her magical strength at all. He's completely aware that she is stronger than him. He doesn't protect because he thinks they can't protect themselves. I'll use a couple of examples; early in the piece when they go to the church so that Shirou can learn all about the war from the false priest and Ilya attacks the group with Berserker, spoiler[Shirou throws himself in front of Saber to save her "life" - of course, Shirou didn't know that Saber's actual self is already dead and that the servants don't really "die" and aren't really alive either - and at that point he'd already watched her fight and get her ass kicked, and she would have been lost if he hadn't jumped in.] He wasn't expecting to live through that, it's not like he knew about his regenerative powers at that point either. I doubt he was thinking "i'm stronger than Saber, maybe I have a chance" - he was probably thinking "If I can give them a chance maybe Rin and Saber can get away before they all die". Come on, he jumped into Beserkers attack without a weapon or any magical ability - he knew it would kill him. Even when he says to Saber that he doesn't want her to fight, I think the motivation of that too is simply that he didn't want her to die. He said from the outset he didn't want to fight in the war - he just wanted Saber to live. He wasn't thinking "I can fight better than you", he was thinking "I don't want you to die fighting these monsters". He was made very aware that he was a broken master, as well - unable to give Saber the magical strength she needed. He got training from her on how to fight and all that, and I'm sure all that was running through his mind was "If I can do enough just to save one person, then that's better than nothing". After all, he wanted to be a superhero. He didn't want to be weak; he wanted to be able to protect everyone. He knew it was impossible but he wanted to try anyway. Sure he was idealistic to the point of suicide but I think his motivations were sound enough, and not sexist. That's just my take on it.
I just want to throw this out there that, especially in type moon games, the objective is rarely "follow one path and get to see the main characters have sex". Though Fate/stay Night does have hentai in it, I feel it is kind of out of place and unnecessary. It's like it was thrown in there to help sell the product. In any case I doubt that with the story writing, the whole thing was based around horny men - you can get pornography without the huge, non-erotic accompanying story. I mean, I read the VN because I find it more entertaining than reading a book and the story interests me, plus you get to see the characters and the facial expressions, music, art etc often help set the mood more than would ever be possible in a novel. I mean when you see sites like erogamescape rating a VN, it won't get a 10 for having good porn scenes when there is 20-30 hours of gameplay completely un-hentai related. Like you, I hate strip clubs too, and if you dislike hentai you can filter the type moon games (they have a non-h version installable). The game is so much more than a sleazy hentai title. So my point there is that I don't think any prevalent sexism in the VN is in any way related to the fact that it is a hentai game. I just think they wanted Shirou to come across as a person who puts his body where his mouth is, and believes firmly in his ideals to a fault. Personally I don't think Shirou is shown to be that manly; he spends half the anime cooking for women. That's anti-sexism right there. |
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4nBlue
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I don't think Shirou is trying to be sexist, his actions are motivated more by his hero complex and the fact that he places no value on his own survival.
Heavens Feel Spoilers from the end of the visual novel.
Fate/Zero (set during the fourth grail war 10 years before Fate/Stay Night) Spoilers for those who have not read the visual novel.
Enough evidence?
@ zgripţuroicǎ I feel sorry for those who play FSN for the sex. Sex is under 1% of the whole game and the scenes are unvoiced and Nasu is well known for being terrible at writing sex scenes. You should try playing some visual novels with no adult content (Narcissu and Planetarian are good games to start with). |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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What evidence do I have? The VN. What I said is not something revealed in the Stay Night path. IIRC, it's in the Heaven's Feel (the last) path, where Illya is a bit more involved in the plot. I can give you an additional spoiler to reinforce what I said. Read at your own risk: spoiler[Illya is Kiritsugu Emiya's biological daughter, which he had *before* moving to Japan to be part of the previous Grail War. It was part of his agreement with the Einzberns, on whose behalf he fought in the pervious War.] To All: Oh, and when you see Unlimited Blade Works, there should be more about Shiro's ideals in it and how he implimented them and the ultimate results thereof. He and Archer argue over it quite a bit. The Shiro at the end of this path is not the same as the one at the end of the Stay Night path. Edit: Looks like 4nBlue beat me to the punch. 
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Skylark
Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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Hrm. Maybe I should get around to finishing Heaven's Feel. I started playing through it but it wasn't as interesting as UBW so I stopped. In any case she _is_ described by Rin as being a powerful magus for one so young, and though that still might indicate that for a 20ish year old or whatever she is she is very powerful, you can see how I would misconstrue that, and probably how Shirou would, not having been told that she is in fact older (and thus not wanting to protect her merely because she is female, but because he sees her as a little girl). In any case I don't think his over-protectiveness regarding her can be construed as sexism.
Also, I'd add Ever17 as a recommendation for non-hentai VN's - it is quite simply excellent and a real mind twister. |
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Sea Lion
 Posts: 307 |
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First, I'll tackle Susan Bordo.
What's she's trying to describe isn't a new form of sexism -- it's modern society's struggle with gender roles. What is a man? What is a woman? Unless I misunderstood my basic biology, it would be entirely possible for a lesbian couple to reproduce without any assistance from a man with in vitro fertilization. Gay male couples don't have that option because the male body isn't designed for pregnancy, but who knows if it won't happen in the future? Men don't have to be the hunter/providers, and women don't have to be the gatherer/nurturers like in the past. We haven't learned how to deal with this yet. Now, relating to Shiro in particular -- everyone's trying to say he only protects females, but it isn't exactly true. Remember early on in the series (maybe the first episode), when Shiro and Shinji had to do some chores around school after hours? Shinji blew them off because he knew Shiro would take both of their work upon himself because of Shiro's hero complex. Sure, Shiro isn't saving Shinji's life, but he is taking on undue hardships to ease the burden on others. Also, what about Shiro's willingness to help out Issei Ryuudou whenever Issei brings a broken whatnot to him? I don't remember Shiro ever getting paid to fix things. Again, he's doing it either out of the goodness of his heart or his hero complex -- whichever way you want to see it. Thirdly, Shiro was trying to save spoiler[everyone at school, girls and boys, men and women, alike when Rider and Shinji set up the mana-draining dome over the campus. He even lets Saber take on Rider -- who is infinitely more dangerous than Shinji -- while Shiro deals with Shinji.] If you look hard enough, you can see patterns in anything. It's what we higher-thinking humans do. |
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the Rancorous
 Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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I really don't see how that is responding to the point I was making about Saber not being the 'aspiring strong female character' many claim her to be at all. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay, but we're talking about the anime here. Yeah, the VN may be the source material but you can hardly start introducing significant plot twists that never made the cut and implying we should all consider them canon to the anime where there is absolutely no indication of them being true at all. If it's not in the anime then you can hardly reach conclusions about the anime based on it. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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I thought we were talking about Fate/Stay Night as a whole: as an entire franchise, not just the anime. If you limit yourself to the anime, then a lot of things will end up skewed, since the anime was almost entirely just the Stay Night path, with a little of Unlimited Blade Works thrown in, and a very tiny dash of Heaven's Feel. If you are talking about only the anime, then there isn't much to show the bigger picture of Shiro's superhero fixation. As I said before, if they cover the Unlimited Blade Works path reasonably closely in the movie, then it should do a lot to help show what Shiro's protectionism is all about, and what it ends up doing, and what it ends up costing him. The Stay Night path spends a lot of its time setting the stage, so many details that appear in later paths are lost. |
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John Casey
 Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
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There's a very easy way to bypass the sexist content in this series:
Shirou is a godamn moron. Saber is a total badass. Whose word, or course of action would one take more seriously? That of an asshat? Or that of a really badass knight? ...Problem solved. |
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kilaria
 Posts: 135 Location: Dallas, TX |
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wow, do I feel like I opened up a huge can of worms here.
Ultimately, when it comes down to it you can argue both sides until you're blue in the face and it's not going to change the mind of what each person feels about the anime. Even after reading each post, I still do not feel it was sexist. Especially not compared to many other anime out there... I honestly feel that it showed women in a strong light and was tickled pink when I found out that spoiler[ Saber was really King Arthur!!!] I mean come on people... if the anime was truly sexist, I seriously DOUBT they would have portrayed that character as a woman instead of a man. I am a woman, and consider myself a strong one at that who does not need a man to get through life. When it comes down to it, I think some people are just overly sensitive and once they get it in their head that something 'belittles' women there is no turning back from that. Personally, I think those who insist how 'sexist' this anime was are reading way too much into it and are being way too sensitive, but that is just my opinion.
Sometimes you've got to just sit back and enjoy the show. Don't read too much into it. |
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John Casey
Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
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They obviously haven't even given a look-see at the visual novel. :3 Although, since we're on that subject, I partially take back my statement of Shirou being a moron. ...Partially. |
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kilaria
Posts: 135 Location: Dallas, TX |
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Can't comment on the VN as I have never read it. I am going by the anime only.
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John Casey
Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
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Oh, ok then. Yeah, Shirou's a phantasmically annoying idiot. Saber is a total badass. Sexism = Non-existent. :3 |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah. I kind of wonder if that isn't the problem too. People tend to be very predisposed to finding anime sexist. Not to say I entirely blame them. Anime frequently is really sexist. That said, I don't think that's the case with FSN and this is why it annoys me to no end when people seem to take a brief look at the series and immediately upon seeing how Shiro won't let Saber fight, jump to the conclusion that it's because she's a woman. Then, even if they still give the series a chance, everything is interpreted negatively in a manner that supports their conclusion that FSN is sexist. |
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