Forum - View topicNot really sexist?
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einhorn303
 Posts: 1180 |
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Ok, so I'm the sort of embittered otaku loser who spends his days obsessing over moe~ anime and figures. As I sat in my college dorm room, rabidly typing up a Lynette x Yoshika fanfic, I heard the discordant wailing of some fool and his guitar. "Pahh," I thought, "stupid normal people." Making all that noise in the quad courtyard, a bunch of boys poorly strumming their guitar and singing bad Bob Marley songs, just to pick up girls. And I realized, that's what it is...it's all basically a competition for women. I've never heard a girl singing or playing down there, they just sort of stand around and be pretty, asking guys for cigarettes and acting like prizes. Some impassioned forum posters may say my hobbies are sexist, but the sociological dynamics I see outside in the quad courtyard seems a lot more sexist.
People say, "ohh, fanservice and moe anime objectify women." But they objectify FAKE women, not real women. An otaku can have a much less sexist opinion of women. When he sees a girl on the street, he doesn't think, "Daaaamm yo, I'd hit it," he thinks of her as a person. After all, the most devoted otaku think 2d is far superior to 3d. The objectification and sexual satisfaction the otaku gets from 2d women makes it so they don't have to objectify 3d women. The average drunken frat boy is a lot more likely to sexually assault a girl than the average shy, imagination-prone otaku. We already have doujinshi and eroge, we don't need women for sex...the power politics of sex are removed from the equation, making for more equal gender relations. Look at the odd, post-social relations that hardcore male and female (yaoi) loving otaku are able to have. Traditional culture, for the last 2000 years at least, has been wildly sexist. Otaku culture may have weird-ass porn doujinshi, but on a social level, in the real world, it may be far less sexist. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Seems to me that you feel guilty and you're trying to justify your behavior by arguing that other people are even worse. However, that isn't really much of an argument if those people are only a small minority. What you're doing is picking out the worst of the worst and treating them as the norm. In reality though, your average person is not like the people you're describing.
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Elfen12
 Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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Okay pal, i was thinkin' up to the point in the quote... that seems rathehr logical, a great epiphany, all that. But this, well... if that were truly the case, i'd be a major problem. I guess it isn't literally, but in theory it'd be a major problem. Freud and other theorists said that sex and reproduction are what continue the human race... and humans want to have sex (for the most part) becuase it is pleasureable, are you with me here. Without such desires as sex to be extant, without them existing, we would be extinct by now. Think about it, if we didn't feel it to be pleasureable, then why would we even do it. We should be thankin' whatever made it that way, (is it natural providence that we're the superior race, a weird thought), becuase since whoever it was who made it that way, made it that way, we can now do the so called "natural obligation" and we have this incentive, this pleasure principle, to help us.Theorist say, that's (awkwardly enough to say) that's why sex feels so good (so we can continue reproduction, theorist say at least), becuase that way, we'll keep doing more and more of it which will in the end keep our race in tact. Now if you look at what you said about "taking sex out of the equation"... well, as one could imagine that'd pose some problems. I am a big, "fan" so to speak, or "believer" of that theory (i'm not even sure if it's theory or is it considered something else?). But so when you say we (those otaku) have " more equal gender relations" , is that honestly a good thing. Say anime in ... oh 40 years became extremely popular, enough to the point at which, okay i'm goin' out on a limb here (remember this is hypothetical) that 1 in 3 people watch it. Now i'm not sure of the ratio between male and females on this planet, but imagine what would happen if they all thought this way. In theory, if they all had the opinion your'e having about this whole thing, it would give a huge blow (ha) to mankind, definatly crippling the existence slightly. Of course this won't be the case (most likely i hope), but, an opinon like the one you stated just doesn't agree with that theory theorist have theorized, despite how important or unimportant that theory may be. (however i'm also quite aware that you probably wern't aiming that way ...) However, a partial glimpse in reality shows that another group, the neo-freudians, share, well, on a completely differnet topic, the same ending that you've come up to with the "human relations statement" if we were to look at it from a freudian perspective. They tend to nearly disregard the whole idea that life is about pleasure. If sexual interaction wasn't "pleasureable" then the human race, as i stated before, woudln't be doin' so hot on the population table. Neo-freudians tend to disregard that life is about pleasure, and just take the social side of things, exaclty waht you're saying. You're saying we all may get along together better, and that would be the case in your situation, but ... is that good? i guess that's just what i'm aiming at. I know that was probably as bias as it gets, basically assuming that freud was correct in his theory.. but still, i find myself to be a rather strong believer in most of freuds work, psychoanalytic theory, all that. But taking the side of a happy otaku, (of which i have to admit, i don't think i qualify as an otaku) (a hap-taku) annd a freduian, i'd agree with you when you say
That in some ways supports freudian theory if you look at it from a prolonged perspective. Freud says that indeed, we're all born in general to reproduce, and reproduction for humans feels good for us, it's pleasureable, (for most animals i believe it isn't, corrections?). So yes, in taht regard, all life is (at least in society today, up till like age oh say, (damn this is going to be controversial lol) 29) is just tryin' to "reproduce" which in turn provides for human existence.... but yeah, i guess in many ways it is both unfair and un-ethical. But ... hmm well yeah i'll end it there. -Elfen12- (again sorry with all the psychology, it's just when reading those statements made, my brain went into psycho-mode ... hehe i get it) Edit: I also strongly agree with what is said directly below my post in the post made by zanarkand princess. \/\/ Last edited by Elfen12 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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zanarkand princess
 Posts: 1484 |
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So you started this topic to justify your views on an argument that isn't happening?
Soo you have statistics? Because it seems to me that you are once again trying to argue a moot point on an argument that is non existent. Not only that but in your post you are acting like most anime fans are "hardcore otaku" who have no interest in other real people and that most american anime fans are male. Both untrue by gender fandom is split down the middle and most anime fans would just like any other normal person prefer a normal happy relationship with another person than a life time with a haruhi doll for all the points that Elfen12 stated. You also sound like the only reason people dislike moe and fan service is because it does become sexist and I can tell you that while that is one reason there are many others. All girls don't like yaoi either and the reason I think so many girls do is not because of "gender politics" but because fan service for girls is rare in a show with a girl/boy couple. How is Flowery borders over blushing pretty boy faces fan service when things like ikki tousen exist for guys (not that I would watch something that tasteless.) but ikki tousen type stuff does happen in yaoi and I think that is a better reason for girls to watch it than any sort of gender issue. 3d women don't have to be objectified and I resent the way you use 3d as if real girls are simply 3d like video game girls, real girls are more than 3d. Tifa is simply 3d I am not |
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Dezixn
Posts: 5 |
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Lol I still say/think that and I'm a huge anime fan! But I'm also a guy so yeah. Not than I'm actually sexist, but I do appreciate hot girls lol... Anyways you said you live in the dorms at your college and you mentioned "the quad courtyard"... Just wondering, but I go to UH and one of our dorm areas is called the Quadrangle or something like that, and it kinda has a courtyard. Just wondering if you go to UH lol. Maybe quad is a popular word at universities or something hah... |
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ShadowTrader
 Posts: 231 Location: NJ |
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So basically you are trying to argue that Otakus are superior to "normal" people because they objectify 2D women instead of 3D women, and this is better because it creates equal gender relations and doesn't hurt anyone, am I correct in summarizing your argument?
As much as I am tempted to bash you right now, I will give you props for having the balls to express your level of naivety and degeneracy. I do not know the reason why, or really care. why you want to defend your infatuation but it seems to me like you are full of resentment towards the people who are playing the "sexist" game in the 3D world. However what you fail to realize is that unlike yourself they are doing exactly what every human being is supposed to do, and that does not make them more or less likely to become rapists or sexual predators. Your regression away from normal society could be a sign that you refuse to accept the reality of this world or that it has rejected you already and you can not deal with it. However, this is not an excuse for you to form stereotypes based on what you see from your window. The fact of the matter is real socialization, (not virtual), no matter what the form, is part of human nature, and if you do not partake in it you are the one that is sexist and biased because you refuse to accept that the real world is filled with it. |
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einhorn303
Posts: 1180 |
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Based on http://www.sexualassault.wsu.edu/default.asp?PageID=1056 >Seven out of 10 rape victims know their attackers Otaku who don't go on dates or have many female friends = less likely to be a rapist >The average rapist is is a man at a party who ended up with a woman in a bedroom. Well...that cuts out most otaku.
Oh? That's a unique way of looking at it.
Nah, I go to UMass Amherst. I reckon quad is a rather popular term. |
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daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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Who cares? Everyone who's alive today descended from perverts. All the non-perverts failed to procreate and died off. Now it's just a bunch of horny bastards looking for love in all the wrong places. LOL. Sorry, but I just couldn't bring myself to take this seriously. Otaku are freaks. So are goofball musicians who try to pick up chicks by forming mismatched bands and whatever else they can think of. But you know what, one of those types scores and learns and moves on and the other doesn't. I don't think it matters if you're sexist or not, women are sexist too. It's all just a bunch of PC horseshit in the end. We're all sinners. We're all self absorbed. We're all overly picky and we all desire what we probably can't have and almost certainly don't deserve. It's no big deal in the grand scheme of things. The number of folks I've met who view the other sex as true equals I can count on one hand. Neither sex is good at treating the other right, it's just human nature. Any hobby that keeps you stuck in your room avoiding human contact is probably is less healthy than stumbling your way into some random girls arms. Of course that's just my view, and I certainly don't speak for everyone. Curious topic though...
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Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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-If you don't have time on your hands, just pass this post on your way down, it's confusing, not really proving all that much, and is just offering opinions and justifications to disproof proof, something that is rather impossible, i thoguth i'd say it anyway though since i realized only after i wrote it that it was the way it was.-
With this statement, might you be saying that All Otakus don't go on dates nor have many female friends. Or, are you assuming that just some... if it's just some of them who don't have female friends or go on dates, well then there is also a "some" of them who do go on dates and have female friends. From what i've noticed, the Otakus that i know personally do have female friends, that's for sure. I... maybe, i mean i don't know, i don't want to flat out insult you here buddy, but... i mean, maybe that's just you. I'm not sure though, i just konw around where i'm from, the otaku that exist, are all accepted by the young people of this world, the young people society. So that idea, looking at the area that i'm from, is sort of false in some ways. Then by your second statement, you're implying that most otaku don't attend "parties". Again, i must admit from the area that i'm around, i just don't see that to be the case, therefore i find it hard to believe that that can be the case... however i won't deny the statistic, because ... well, out of my sensibility, i just won't. But onto my stronger, less important arguement (cruel fate i know). Again, looking at it from a psychological perspective, wouldn't holding in these sexual desires, build up the amount of desire to a dangerous point at which they'd be more likely to rape someone then say, your average fella walkin' 'round on the street. I mean, holding such an intesne desire such as the desire to sexually reproduce isnt' an easy task, not at all. So, after some time of being an otaku, according to your defintion of otaku, woudln't these feelings just build and bulid to the point where one is on the tip of a dangerous slope ( a tip where both sides are dangerous slopes). Now also accoridng to your definition of otaku, you said "The objectification and sexual satisfaction the otaku gets from 2d women makes it so they don't have to objectify 3d women"... so one would try to let his desires go on the 2d women. However, physically that happens to be impossible, unless you're extremely extremely creative, and i mean extremely. So what's your next best choice. 1D? If that's the case, i suggest getting psychological help. 3D is the next best choice. Esepically since you said "After all, the most devoted otaku think 2d is far superior to 3d." (now i have no idea how true that is, i'd find it to not be true but we'll say it is for now)... that would mean that if one can't let go their sexual desires on a 2d women, then they would a 3d, as it's the next best choice. However, as you said otaku are on "more equal gender relatoins"... which i find to be largley unlikely becuase one can't just magically have a good social ettiquete, that type of thing develops over time. (lol i'm going to state fruits basket here since they put it best)... Shigure once talked about human to human relations don't just happen, you have to train, just like you have to train if your'e a fighter... (he was saying kyo was a blackbelt in martial arts, but still has a white belt in social skillz, and that he will meet someone who wants to be his friend, but if he doens't have enough training he won't be ready). So an otaku who "spends his time in his room obsessing over moe~ anime and figures" wouldn't necissarily have those social skills. So on that note, not only woudl that mean that otaku (according to your definition) dont' have "more equal gender realtions" it would mean that they aren't even ready to have gender relations, let alone relations wiht the same sex. So on that note, one woudln't be able to let his desires go, with the other partners consent, without doing something reckless like rape. I'll try to explain it shorter, assumptions included... Becuase this otaku doesn't have the social skills, unless he is mega lucky, he won't be able to have sexual intercourse to relieve his built up desires, without the other persons consent to do so. The only other choice for the fella is rape ( hardly a choice ) or to let them keep buidling up, or just open up to society...but during which time of opening up to soceity, he'd be building up his sexual desires. Okay on that long note, more like essay, would it not make sense that an otaku, according to your (einhorn303) definition, would be perhaps just a bit more likley to rape someone. Also ...
Hows that... Unless the dude carried her up there to the bedroom, laid her down, and started ... yeahing... i mean there are other people around at a party, i highly doubt they'd stand idley by and watch this guy forcefully take a girl to a room and yeah. I mean that is just an opinion but, it seems, again, unlikely. However, to save you some time, i'll insert what you should put. It's becuase of the achohol that is involved... well ... but ... i suppose i can't argue with statistics. 
hmm, but...
Once again, taking a psychological stance here. When people are in their rooms, as you say you are, doing what ever they're doing, and not communicating socially to other people, freud stated that it's because ... well becuase of the phenomena known as Anal Relentiveness, ones superego (definition: The part of the personality that represetns interenalized ideals and provides a standard for judgement (the conscience) [David G. Myers]) develops too strongly, and thus what has occured to you, occurs (what i mean by that, is how you stay in your room obsessing over Moe and what not). So the Id (definition: Contains a resevoir of unconcious pyschic energy that strives to staisfy basic sexual and agressive drives. It operates on the pleasure principle, demanding gratification [David G. Myers]) is undeveloped becuase of this and is forced further into the unconcious and with help of the Ego (the part of the personality that mediates between the superego and the id) the superego sustains superiority. However, when one is drinking and has had anal relentiveness, the Id takes over, and thus these desires come to the top and so they occur. But as said before, an Otaku doesn't have the social skills to properly "hook up" or what ever at a party... accoridng to my conclusion of otakus and their social skillz... whether that is true or not remains to be seen. So, with the help of achohol as the website you gave us stated, this Id would come out in Otaku, according to your definition of Otaku, and would activate these sexual feelings... woudln't something that would occur be rape. Since the otaku can't properly have sexual intercourse with the other participants consent, the only other possibility is rape right since when you're drunk, your ego ain't doin' much and the Superego is supressed. So, i mean with this information i've presented, woudln't it make sense that the Otaku who do get into the party be very likely to rape, (or at least more likely then your average dude at the party), if they have come into contact with sufficient ammounts of achohol to suffice for such actions? Wow, okay... talk about overboard, but yeah, i have all the time in the world on my hands, so... yeah. But i guess, i mean i still can't argue wiht the statistics, but i guess i was just doing all in my power to proove them wrong eh. Now i'd say it's about time for me to stop here as i'll just be made to look more... stupid. In the time it's taken me ot write this, dax, i agree with what you said. -Elfen12- man i'm sure this made no sense, typing so much can lead to things not making sense, but what the hell right |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Cutting out a large portion of what the above writer wrote, I also would like to comment on what the thread author wrote, with assistance from the quotee. The author's statement on Otaku as quoted by the above makes the view of otaku become one sided. Which is most definetly wrong. Especially if he is thinking that is the way they are portrayed in anime, so surely that must be them in real life. In which that is not the case. There are instances of anime otaku portrayed in anime that do have somewhat of social lives outside of their otaku fandoms. One such case is the extremist gamer Kousaka from Genshiken, while he did pretty much play video games and such, he spoiler[still had a girlfriend and even a sex life (in a hilarious way).] And that is why the sterotype surrounding otaku can be misleading, a stereotype used by the author of this thread. |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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I also disagree with einhorn's statement that otaku don't have social lives or relationships (if that is what he's saying, since like Elfen pointed out, it wasn't clear). I've personally been friends with 10 otaku in my life so far (8 guys, 2 girls) and one of the guys is married, 5 of them are dating someone or dated before, and the other four haven't dated but are still social. Possibly the "most otaku" of them would be the one who I had class with, he actually dressed as Naruto in class one day (but it was appropriate, since it was Halloween, and quite a few people were in costume), but he was still friendly with others and nobody mistreated him (then again, this is college, where people seem more accepting than high school).
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Lonestar9
Posts: 20 |
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[quote="einhorn303"]
We already have doujinshi and eroge, we don't need women for sex Wait...what?? You'd rather live in a fantasy world than particpate in the real one, with real women? I love me anime, sci-fi, and other hobbies, but I also want to live in the real world, warts and all, with real people, despite being a shy guy. To each his own, but a hobby shouldn't be a way of life, unless you like make a living off of it. |
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Labbes
 Posts: 890 |
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My personal opinion on this can be kept very short, by taking an extreme example:
I don't think there is a difference between degrading women to sex dolls in hentai or in porn. To reply to your above post, I obviously think whether you objectify real or fake women does not matter. Fiction does change your point-of-view in reality. |
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zanarkand princess
Posts: 1484 |
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It seems to me that einhorn303 is showing somewhat hikikomori traits with his posts. I don't personally know any otaku that prefer 2d women over 3d ones either. I also don't know why you assume that all otaku are bad in social situations and don't date. Maybe it's my age but I (though I'm a girl) would prefer to go out and have fun with "normal" people for a while instead of locked up in the house. It's not bad to be attracted to other people it's normal. It's that normality that keeps us from becoming extinct. How is it possible that 2d women are superior when there is no hope of being in a relationship with that person. The most real thing about a 2d girl is the voice actress behind her and otaku tend to act like they aren't humans with feelings either.
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einhorn303
Posts: 1180 |
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Well, of course I'm using the Japanese meaning of the term "otaku."
"It should be noted that the English term geek is not a precise translation of the Japanese otaku. Otaku has a significantly greater negative connotation than geek does in the West, especially as the term geek has become less derogatory. The term otaku in Japanese occasionally suggests a creepy, obsessive loner who rarely leaves the house...While otaku in English-speaking contexts is generally understood to mean geek or even fan, this usage is not widely known in Japan. Casual use of this term may confuse or offend native Japanese speakers." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku |
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