Forum - View topicOnline doujinshi
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sakura_kiki
 Posts: 18 |
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Alright, so, this is my second thread.
I've been aware of a few online webcomics that are often considered as 'doujinshi' by other fans. Some examples include: - Powerpuff Girls Doujinshi and Grim Tales by Bleedman - MNT Gaiden by Tigerfog - Shine Heaven Now by ErinPtah - Gilligan's Island Doujinshi - Star Wars shoujo doujin - Kingdom Hearts Doujin and I've seen people refer to MegaTokyo and Applegeeks as doujinshi. I was wondering if there was anything else like these out in the far corners of the internet somewhere? Y'know, I'm mostly asking for webcomics that have an animesque art style to them and are often considered 'doujinshi' by fans. And please, no wank in here. :/ I don't want this thread to be closed. If you wanna discuss the 'validity' of doujinshi or something, do it in another thread or make your own. ETA: By the way, not asking for downloads here! Just for webcomics that can be accessed through their respective homepages and such. 
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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Um, how can I not comment when you're not actually asking for the word you use? Doujinshi doesn't mean just parody work. Doujinshi means any small press comic in Japan. What you've linked to isn't doujinshi. They're web comics that parody specific series. They're fan parody comics online.
Also, to call MegaTokyo and Apple Geeks doujinshi? Clearly these people don't understand the word. Why not use the better English term of 'web comics'? It's okay to say it kids. Say it with me. Comics. It's not a bad word. Guess what? It's okay to speak English! Okay, fine, won't go after your "anime-esque art style" comment. I know that will drudge up some trolls. Though, really, the rape of the Japanese and English languages on some of these sites by fans shows no bounds. Star Wars Shojo Doujin? Gilligan's Island Doujinshi? Are they joking? Are they trying to be cliche or are they just that unaware? You talk about not wanting wanking, but there's already enough going on in some of your links. (And dear crap that Hellsing comic is awful. There's some wonderful Hellsing fan art I've seen, namely Solid&etc, but that looks like some pretty awful fan wank.) Pretty much you're not asking for doujinshi. You're asking for web comics. If you want doujinshi, go to Akihabara or visit Comiket. There are also a number of web sites importing them. Web comics like these are are a whole other animal. Maybe they're a new form of doujinshi or fanzine or even comics themselves, but they are a whole different animal. Personally, I find these parody fan comics rather lacking. If I want to read about Hellsing, I'll read the actual book, not some fan wank. Never mind the obvious legal issues that render such work pretty much a waste of time. In Japan and its doujin market, there are looser copyright laws. The parody comics slide by. Yet such a thing just doesn't exist in America. Some companies are more lenient than others, but it's just not the same. Heck, just today I heard about some Harry Potter fan book was shot down in a lawsuit from the publisher and author. A friend of mine has an online comic he sometimes works on. I think it's mostly a waste as he doesn't have any original characters and pretty much writes about cosplaying, so he's still using popular character from anime instead of his own. Now, Bleedman has actually gotten some notice and a job from Cartoon Network. Though that's a rare case. It's almost like the hackers who get hired into security on companies they hack into. Still not recommended. Meanwhile, I think original web comics like MegaTo.. er.. like Apple Geeks is where it is at. Apple Geeks is amazing. To call it simply by some Japanese name for small press comics is an insult. It's narrow minded to write it off like that. Hell, they even got signed up with a publishing deal with Dark Horse. To me, that's where young comic artists should be looking. Get off this cheap fan art bandwagon. How nice, you drew Snape as a rabbit or Naruto into Kindom Hearts. I see conventions clogged with industrial amounts of such fan wank. Try creating something original and quit ripping off others, hitching a ride on some popular anime series. Maybe just occasionally riff on popular characters and at fitting times, like if a new movie is coming out your characters talk about it. At the very least make it more a commentary on the fandom and show fans talking about the show. I think of it this way. Kevin Smith didn't start with trying to sell a Star Wars film, but he did have a bunch of people talking about Star Wars. Also, here's a 'in Soviet Russia car drives you' moment. http://nekomiso.com/ It's a Japanese fan artist site featuring American comics, mainly DC Comics characters. It's amazing to see a Japanese artist geeking out on obscure characters I have a hard time finding fans of in the US. |
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sakura_kiki
Posts: 18 |
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... Y'know what. Forget this.
I probably shouldn't have put this topic up. Maybe a mod should just close this thing. |
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einhorn303
 Posts: 1180 |
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In b4 (or perhaps after) "ONLY JAPANESES CAN WRITE DOUJINSHU U BAKA!!1!!" and other forms of bizarre cultural purism. Allow me to quote Wikipedia:
"Dōjinshi (同人誌, Dōjinshi, often transliterated as Doujinshi) are self-published Japanese or English works, usually manga or novels. They are often the work of amateurs, though some professional artists participate as a way to publish material outside the regular industry. The term dōjinshi is derived from dōjin (同人, dōjin? dōjin, literally "same person", used to refer to a person or persons with whom one shares a common goal or interest) and shi (誌, shi? , a contraction of zasshi, meaning "magazine"). Groups of dōjinshi artists refer to themselves as a circle (サークル, sākuru?). A number of such groups actually consist of a single artist: they are sometimes called kojin circles (個人サークル, kojin circles? personal circles). During the 1980s, the content of dōjinshi shifted from being predominantly original content to being mostly parodic of existing series. " I don't see a problem with Americans using the term "doujinshi." I think it's a good example and ideal to aspire to. I actually just wrote a post about something like on AnimeOnDVD. To quote: "I've always thought that webcomics were America's natural equivalent of Japanese doujinshi, because of geographical reasons...Japan is small, so it's easy for people to travel to a central location (Comiket) and share print works. The US, on the other hand, is large and vast, and it's hard for someone on the West Coast to go the NY Small Press Expo, or for someone on the East Coast to visit San Diego Comic-con. Thus the internet becomes more important, for allowing people to share creative comics without the constraints of financial viability." I think the work of Dan Kim deserves special note. He drew a comic based on Elfen Lied, putting the characters in a very different sort of darkly humurous and perversely tragic context that many people love more than the original series. Haven't read "Nana's Everyday Life" yet? You should. The end is so beautifully tear-jerking. http://manga.clone-army.org/nana.php And most of the other comics on Dan's site (http://manga.clone-army.org/). He's a rather talented illustrator. And Xenos, you may deride parody works as "fan wank," but it's a good way to start. That's how lots of Japanese artists do...Azuma drew Sailor Moon parody doujinshi, and that's what let him improve enough to write now classic works like Azumanga Daioh and Yotsuba&! It's a system that's proven to work quite well in turning out new talent. |
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SharinganEye
 Posts: 402 Location: Les Etats-Unis d'Amérique |
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It's not a webcomic, but I do want to mention Evangelion Re-Take again.
Great, great work. |
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The Xenos
Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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I was tempted to mention Dan Kim's work, but.. well.. it's not quite for everyone. Though if you're a sick f--- like Dan (and his fans like me), then you might get a kick out of it.
There's also his original work, Paper XI. I picked up a collected print edition at a con. Stuff like that is more like what Japan has for doujinshi. Though what makes it very different is that it was first published online. The internet has forever changed the ways comics are published. I picked up that and some posters, including one of Nana. Yeah, as much as I blast fanworks, I simply love Nana. Yet Dan can't quite sell Nana fanart. I think he's not selling those posters anymore because it's simply not his character. It's owned by someone else in Japan and also in America. I don't know if ADV warned him or if he wisely stopped it himself, but I don't think he offers them anymore and is wisely focusing on creator owned stuff. (Though he does seem to still have that Tomoyo42 shirt. Though no one really cares about Cardcaptors and it's so much better with gory lesbian action. Heh heh.) Another web comic going to print is Freak Angels. The interesting thing about this one is that well known British author Warren Ellis is behind it. So here you have a traditionally print author trying out online comics. Stuff like Apple Geeks, Mac Hall / Three Panel Soul, Chugworth Academy, PvP, VG Cats, Penny Arcade, Clone Army Manga, and most other web comics are more like the old format of the newspaper comic strip than what Japan calls doujinshi. Doujinshi is more like fanzines or indie comics than these web comics. Again, I may have been harsh, but I take issue with this compulsion fans have shoehorning Japanese terms into English when better phrases and counterparts exist. Doujinshi has existed in America for some time. The small press expos and numerous self publishing ventures in America are closer to what the Japanese call doujinshi than any of these comics. Comiket and its doujinshi is more like the Small Press Expo in Baltimore than these online fan art doodles. If anything, go to artist alleys at cons for 'American doujinshi'. The web comic and online artwork are an entirely different, new, and exciting entity. Again, doujinshi is not the word. Look. This is my problem. You're asking for two different things. You say you want dojinshi. Yet you also are asking for online comics. Which are you looking for? Are you looking for parody works? Are you looking for original works? It sounds like you're just looking for online comics that are simply fan art using popular (and copyrighted) characters. Of course maybe I'm an incredible hypocrite or maybe I've just matured. Back in my high school and early college days, a friend and I used to make Evangelion parody comics crossing over with a South Park art style just for s----s and giggles. Looking back, they're not quite that great, just some fun we had. Though maybe I'll finish mixing the images of that Evangelion / Clerks crossover someday. Heh.   
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einhorn303
Posts: 1180 |
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You say that, but I think theres a real growth of that sort of attitude here. Maybe not for ultra-mainstream stuff. But go back to the 60's and look at the underground comix of R. Crumb and co, and you'll see a lot of parodies which actually were legally protected by the government. Remember the Air Pirates, that classic 70's retake of Mickey Mouse which put Disney characters in mature sexual, political, and drug-related situations? Is Dan Kim getting sued any time soon? Westerners who make Touhou Project doujinshi, like Another Dream, do you actually think they're going to get sued? What about the thousands of erotic Harry Potter fanfictions online? Or Katawa Shoujo, an American VN-project that's community-made and encourages fanworks? TSR realized in the 90's that suing people for homemade Dungeons and Dragons content was suicide, now they have the Open Gaming License that allows for-profit 3rd-part D&D books. Garfield Minus Garfield started out as fan project, now it's being recognized by the companies and printed as an official book. There are all sorts of examples along these lines. Basically, my point is that saying "such an atmosphere simply doesn't exist in America" is too black and white. The American cultural landscape is vast and has lots of different attitudes, from mainstream Hollywood to smaller geek copyleft ambitions. And I think the general trend is away from "sue everyone" to a more Japanese-like recognition that the fanbase must be given it's freedom. |
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The Xenos
Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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True, it's not as black and white as I made it sound, but I am trying to advise that such fanart is really not the way to break into the industry. I'm trying to dissuade against this popular trend. Plus the idea itself that kids are more into buying fanart instead of official art or some new artist's original creation is pretty sad.
Garfield Minus Garfield is a pretty rare exception. Same goes for Bleedman's artwork. Dan Kim isn't getting sued, but I have seen him cut down on some stuff. (Though maybe the Blame! poster was more so because like 5 other people besides he and I read it.) Plenty of other artists get cease and desist orders. I know some and have heard how they were told to stop. I've heard of other scuffles too. Generally if you stay below the radar or produce in small enough quantities, it slips by. Maybe if you have some side artwork that is fanart in addition to your original content, no one will say boo. Yet if you actually want to move ahead and make any progress in the industry, doing just fan work is not the way to go. You simply have to have your own content. Selling fan work is a very murky gray area. Well, if you want to start in such murk, go ahead, but it's a very shady way to start. You're quite simply better off doing original work. Are such strict copyrights correct? Don't answer now. Get back to me when someone copies your work and doesn't pay you for it. And.. are you actually arguing for all those horrible Harry Potter erotic fanfics? Are you putting those forward as some kind of positive example? How in the world is that tripe a positive example of anything? Meanwhile, you talk about Crumb and parodies. Or maybe the famous Disneyland Orgy (which, looking it up, was by cartoonist Wally Wood). There is of course an even older example of such xxx parody comics or 'doujin' if you insist. That's the Tijuana Bible. This one book even got a Pulitzer Prize winner to talk about them. http://www.amazon.com/Tijuana-Bibles-Americas-Forbidden-1930s-1950s/dp/0684834618 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tijuana_bible (Oh and if you venture futher into those links, there might be some very NSFW stuff, even if it is cartoon porn from your great grandparents' time.) |
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sakura_kiki
Posts: 18 |
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Seriously, Xenos, you're getting off topic and you're the one that's trying to start the 'wank' in this thread. Just lay it to rest already and just agree to disagree.
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The Xenos
Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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Okay. Guess it's time to dump the semantics and linguistics lesson in the trash. Amazing the stuff you find there.
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11459 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Mm.. kay, no more fighting. Please make a separate thread if you guys really want to keep arguing semantics and such. kiki, feel free to also make a new thread if you want to start from scratch.
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