Forum - View topicHey, Answerfans! [2008-08-01]
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Well, I guess in the days where being remotely exclusionary about anything at all pegs you as an "mean ol' elitist", yeah, I guess I am elitist about some things. I could argue that people who hate anime aren't anime fans and someone would challenge that, and likely call me elitist for saying so.
You're extrapolating my argument to an extreme and then arguing against that extreme rather than what I actually said. Of course all of those things make someone a fan of something. My argument is that if you're not actively participating in the system that allows the things you enjoy to be produced, I question your status as a real fan of the things you claim to enjoy. This applies moreso to anime than other mediums, especially in light of all of the problems the industry has. Do you think that when Nabeshin talks about how he wishes people wouldn't steal his work, he considers those people his fans? Do you think that when Production IG asks people to please stop fansubbing their product, they consider the people who download their movies and TV shows to be their fans? |
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Stretch2424
 Posts: 168 |
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I would like to do my part to support the artistic talent behind the anime industry, but support comes in many forms. I could do anything from buying premium R1 DVDs at full price, or I could watch Adult Swim and the commercials that come with it. What’s frustrating about anime in the US is that so many titles are only available completely legally in the former mode, and so few in the latter. Renting in inefficient; it takes two or three days to return a disc, and two or three more to have another sent to me, while watching it only takes an hour-and-a-half. If taking the trouble to sit through the muted ads of an episode of Death Note on Adult Swim is indicative that I’ve done my part here, then buying a single R1 DVD must set me up for life! *
Fansubs, in comparison are perfect—or rather they would be perfect, if only a token sum was charged via Paypal and forwarded to the makers in Japan. Something like the average number of Yen which is earned per viewer in Japan, via advertisements, etc. I think if anime could be had as cheaply as it is available to anyone in Japan with a TV set (and who has paid their TV tax) , Americans would gladly pay the same fee. I think a lot of the resentment American otaku feel is because we don’t get this chance at “free” (Commercial) anime when it is first broadcast on TV (except for the handful of shows on Adult Swim, etc). For us fansubs have come to substitute for the TV broadcasts in Japan (and then some). What about OVAs? Movies? Nowadays the only showing which the makers have any control of is the very first one; after that their work is committed to the internet and available to anyone with a computer, like it or not. I’ve concluded that the R1 industry will never create a cheap, quick, convenient, user-friendly supply of fresh anime. Maybe the fact that people like me feel this way is indicative of the greatest mistake of the R1 industry. Maybe their hands are tied. I remember reading that when the infant ADV company first inquired about purchasing the licensing rights to an anime series, the Japanese were taken completely by surprise. It had never occured to them that anyone outside the country might have a serious interest in anime. Their attitude came completely around until about 2000 when licensing fees were suddenly raised tenfold by the R2 industry. I think the justification was something about Americans ought to have to pay the same price for their DVDs as the Japanese. But I suspect that the professionally made DVD business can’t survive without a cheap, commercial supply of anime for the average viewer—something to drum up interest. Only the best shows can sell on DVD, not everything, which is what is trying to be done in the US. Does this make any sense to you? *just kidding |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I'm curious as to how big the threat of reverse importing actually is to the R2 industry. Has it occurred on a large scale in the past? |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14886 |
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Heh, imagine how poor starving college students used to make do before the advent of digisubs and anime on US TV! 
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Stretch2424
Posts: 168 |
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The thought has often occured to me that anybody in their right mind in Japan could just download fansubs and ignore the English subtitles--or better yet, the Raw versions.[/quote]
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crilix
Posts: 208 |
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When you're truly poor, you realize just how "poor" other people are when they whine about anime prices. For a long time I actually believed these people, but every time they bought a new gaming console, upgraded their computer, or spent a ridiculous amount of money for their girlfriends' birthdays or booze, I slowly started getting it--they just didn't care much about anime. It's these situations that reveal just how serious a fan is about his hobby. If he's not willing to spend money--money he has--on anime, then he's just a leech, wasting his time on a medium he doesn't really appreciate. There's actually a good explanation why such people watch anime in the first place--it's because anime is one of those hobbies where weak characters or the socially inept seek refuge. Just like MMORPGs, you can spend enormous amounts of time and energy on them, but at the end of the day you're in it because you're bored and you think you have nothing else to do. A small percentage loves the MMORPG genre out of whatever reasons they have. Personally, as someone who actually loves anime more than the fan culture and community around it, I want others to appreciate them just as much as I do. If you can't prove your appreciation and devotion (with money; it's the only way, really), then you're just casual, and you shouldn't by any means be up in arms defending your way of consuming anime and not returning anything to the creators. Your actions would be irrational and baseless (and I'm not addressing you personally). |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I realize nobody has any specific reason to do as I ask, but I would like to request we table the 50th iteration of the "you leeches, go buy the DVDs dang it!" discussion and return to the topic of the column. In fact, I think this argument highlights WHY the current industry stance is such a problem. (why I think things like Greg Ayres' panel are misdirected, in a manner of speaking)
Don't get me wrong, legally, downloaders are in the wrong. And from a "support of the industry/'real fans'" perspective I largely agree with Zac. But the problem with that debate is it traps the fan community in the industry mistake, and more importantly, does not SOLVE the problem. As I said before, the industry mistake (the biggest one) was aiming for the average Joe rather than building their base. The problem is they thought Joe just needed to know about this great anime stuff and they have a HUGE market rather than the small fandom "niche" market. But it's like the NFL Network. If football (or anime) is on network TV (or the internet) for free, tons of people (relatively speaking) will watch it, it's entertaining, they have nothing better to do and it doesn't cost anything extra. But once you make them pay for it, you find out just how much Joe Average cares, which in many cases isn't a whole heck of a lot (or rather, not enough to pay for it). For the record, I fully understand that there ARE people who love the material, love the creators and will do what they CAN to support it, but can't afford to buy DVDs (or at least not many). But that number does NOT make up the bulk of people being referred to, which is people that fit one of two categories: -People who will (in other places) say "why buy when I can download for free. These people CAN totally afford it, but CHOOSE not to. -People who REALLY don't care, for every kid who can do all billion naruto hand-signs and knows all the names of the background character ANBU ninjas. There's tons that stopped watching during the "year of darkness" known as the filler arc, probably a bunch that stopped even before that, that still wear goofy outfits and download the latest episode just so when their friends show up in cosplay they recognize the character or don't feel like an idiot when the fangirls are squealing over the newest Akatsuki member. I think there's a fair sized group of people for whom the internet is the new TV, and in that group a decent portion WILL buy the shows they like. This is the same as the people who watch say "Heroes" on NBC and then buy the DVDs when they're released. (altho in much smaller numbers) The problem is that the internet "download" numbers equate more to the nielsen "viewer" numbers rather than the DVD sales numbers. But the industry doesn't want to believe that and instead buy and market product as if "viewer" numbers would equal "sales" numbers if downloads went away entirely. The CRUCIAL question for the anime industry is how many sales does the exposure gain you, and how many sales does the download factor cost. My opinion has always been that if the US industry had cultivated it's fanbase, the losses would be minimal (because the fans would buy anyway) and the gains would be nothing but "bonus". EDIT:
Bravo to you! If I ever meet you sometime I'd like to shake your hand. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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HeeroTX wrote:
This is a particular argument that I can't quite see where it's coming from. A lot of the arguments in this thread are along the lines of what would be expected, and even with 'earnest intentions' often read more like the question there answering is 'What would be most preferable for my personal convenience', rather than 'What are realistic, practical moves the commercial R1 market could/can try' (cheap subscriptions for unlimited access, it's just like Japanese TV, R1 should open up in India!). However, the 'R1 mishandled the 'true' audience' is still somewhat of a hazy concept to me, and it's been made a couple times now. Since you obviously have some interest on that topic, can you expand a bit more on the specifics, HeeroTX? Ex: Who do you define as the 'base' audience? What time period did it emerge in? Why would a small 'base' prove more profitable than targeting 'mainstream'? Who is the 'mainstream'? How should the R1 industry have built their 'base'? What type of show represents the 'base's' interests? In what way are you stating that R1 licensor's suffered fiscally from going after 'the wrong audience'? Just from my own perspective, I would feel it's hard to tag the R1 industry for going after the wrong audience because in essence R1 doesn't 'control' the product. What they have to work with is what comes out of Japan, by nature that would leave them often having to shift demographics/target markets to match the product their receiving. They can obviously control specific titles that they wish to license, but in the 'macro' whatever 'trend-age' segment is dominating the Japanese market is what R1 is at the mercy of. I see folks talk about how R1 'mishandled' it's older fandom coming out of the 90's, but in essence Japan's anime industry shifted much younger and they simply stopped producing (in quantity) the type of material that attracted and sustained a purchase-heavy 'cult film/geek fun' audience of the 90's (and very early 00's). The 'base' fan of today seems to have typically come from the 02/03+ period, and were probably viewing anime on their computer (especially over the last couple years with the rise of 'Youtube' style fansubs) from very young ages (12/13/14); ages before a person would be expected to start developing true commercial 'consumer' habits/awareness in the first place. The 'base/niche' fan of today appears to me the most likely to heavily fansub (as their experience has been from an internet 'community' background, not a 'hobby/collectible film' angle as in earlier fan periods), not vice-versa. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I think you might be right about the demographic changes in the US, but the peak period for anime viewership was back in 04 or so wasn't it?
The theory I heard previously, which might put that back in your direction is that the industry was still releasing a lot of older anime at that point, and now they've basically "used up" the interesting shows from that era and they are now left with just the "crappy" new stuff. Since I like the newer shows, I do have to say that I don't really like them getting insulted up and down in order to say why the industry has had problems. I think there are a lot of different causes here and yes, the internet culture is one of those problems. I don't know why the older fanbase eroded though. I suppose everyone might be right to say that the nature of anime has changed and they aren't interested in the new stuff, regardless of how much those of us who started out at this time like it. |
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crilix
Posts: 208 |
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The 'mainstream' a.k.a. the casual consumer lacks loyalty and is largely unpredictable. The R1 industry bet everything on good logistics and nation-wide brick & mortar store chains to make their products available everywhere and to extend their target audience beyond the hardcore fan. This is where dubs come in, because without them they wouldn't have had the chance to sell DVDs in chain stores such as BestBuy. Geneon's fall may as well be attributed to Musicland going bankrupt, but such store chains were primary reasons why they even bothered producing dubs, even for niche shows. Simply, they bet everything on exposure, which is something casual fans demand. Hardcore fans find the product themselves, whether it be just a few outlets like Bandai Visual USA had in mind. The main problem is that in order to sell anime to the mainstream they had to lower DVD prices, but casual fans still whine how $29.95 is too much for a single DVD. That's because when they see the same price for a Lost Season 1 DVD Box, they'll say "I can buy the whole season, 10 hours of footage, for the same price as this anime DVD that has only 1 hour of footage." In our eyes, they're comparing oranges to apples, but that's how they view these products. Lowering DVD prices for something that should be selling as a highly-priced niche product is not a good idea. Why is Japan selling anime at such high price points? It's because they have, over the years, created a loyal fan base that's willing to buy anime at such prices. Their economy really isn't a factor because they still don't sell many DVD/BD units per show. Selling to the mainstream is tempting, that's because if a title is successful, you get higher profit margins out of the investment. In case the title flops, you'll be left with licensing expenses and dub production costs (HUGE losses). If the industry focused primarily on hardcore fans, we would have distributors no bigger than Media Blasters or AnimeEigo, but that's where the R1 industry should have remained, IMO. Also, over-saturating the market with an abundance of titles, cheap DVD box sets, and re-re-re-releases of must-have titles was just a horrible approach to the market (at least for ADV, I predict). Anime in North America is now a product that got popular among teens who don't want to pay money for it. Remember the casual consumer? They stopped buying anime when YouTube (and similar sites) received mainstream recognition. BitTorrent never made it that far. You could say the industry was preying on casual consumer ignorance. It was a working business model that's now gone with piracy going mainstream. So now the industry is left with a bunch of anime fans who aren't really fans, but just anime leechers who enjoy the community and fan culture. Hardcore fans are few and far between, and there's no incentive from the industry to cultivate the hardcore fan base. Bandai Entertainment is trying though. |
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Enjeru
 Posts: 221 |
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Like it or not, money makes the world go around. Being a fan (supporter) does require money. Same as in anime as it is in sports. Why do you think teams relocate? Becaus of less people going to the games. These "fans" elect to stay at home and either watch it on tv or on the internet. Well guess what? The owners pack it up and leave. Is it because of greed? No. It is because the loss of revenue from ticket sales. Same goes for anime, kiddo. Do I really have to go into the basics of business with you? It cost so much to produce a product and thus so much has to be made in profit for it to be considered a success. Downloaders are enjoying all the fruits of the project without doing a thing to ensure profits can be made. That is a parasite. A leech holds on the skin and drains blood without doing anything to earn it. In regards to your idea of art being appreciated without paying money; do you honestly think that the owner(s) of the painting or whatever just handed it over to a museum? Sometimes yes, but mostly no. And when it is yes, they did it because they wanted to. It was their decision. I hardly doubt the creators of anime and such just have the idea of "you know, we spent a ton of money on this project.......but I don't care about the money, I just want my work to be viewed by everyone because I have deep pockets." Give me a break....... If that is the case, why don't you spend a bulk of your savings, blood, sweat and tears, and months upon months of your time and then just donate it to the masses. Because according to what you are saying, we are all "hold handing, guitar playing, tree hugging flower children". Then while you are at it, invite a bunch of strangers into your home so they can sleep in your bed, eat your food, then leave without paying a dime. Oh can they borrow your car too? Oh that is very kind of you, because obviously money and resources mean nothing to you. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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If I may expand on crilix's response:
As he said, the base will prove more profitable over the LONG term. Which makes you more money? The 100 baseball fans that go to one playoff game when your team is making a run. Or the 1 fan that gets season tickets, goes to every game, buys jerseys, hats and foam hands and follows the team every year no matter if they win the world series or have the worst record in the majors. The 100 fans make you profit when you hit the boom time (the casual fans of the 00-05 years (give or take on that range), the 1 fan keeps you alive when you've got nothing really impressive (the fans of the 90s, and the fans they need today). The reason this is important, the reason I say this is the industry's BIGGEST mistake, is because companies spent the boom years thinking they were the Yankees (and bid on licenses like that), and now they see that their fanbase is the KC Royals. In sports, you pay for players because you either think they'll put butts in the seats, or you're just a crazy fan, a "true believer" if you will who is willing to lose money just out of love of the franchise. I'd accept that AnimEigo is the latter, but other than that, the other companies are the former. As Crilix referenced, look at a company like Media Blasters, they don't pay insane licensing costs for a title they don't think they'll sell, but other companies did, because they didn't understand WHO they were selling to. When I was in high school, American comic books did the same thing. They saw a surge, and for a time comics saw lots of interest. And rather than really grabbing those consumers and turning them into comic fans, they put out a crapload of "gimmick" issues (single issue with 5 variant covers) to sell more books. Then the fad went away, people lost interest, and comics got seriously hurt while everyone figured out what was going on. But at least for comics, altho they annoyed lots of people, they held their base. For anime companies, they alienated people early, and haven't been TOO great about fixing that. (knowing people at FUNi, I am somewhat biased, but I do think FUNi has made a great effort at this and I think that shows in their sales) Now the casual consumers are losing interest and companies are left holding the bag. Heck, companies look at anime cons and say "look at all those anime fans", but lots of hardcore fans I know don't GO to anime cons anymore, in no small part because the people who DO go often are NOT anime fans. More and more, the "anime" convention demographic is gamers, cosplayers (who may or may not be anime fans, video game costumes are becoming more common than anime costumes), and music fans (either people who want to go to a "concert" or "ravers"). But companies have gotten so used to looking for "consumers" rather than looking for "fans" that I'm not sure if they get the distinction. To put a fine point on it, Japan KNOWS who their hardcore fans are, and good or bad, they market like crazy to those people. In fact, you could argue that the biggest hurdle to "same day" American viewing is that the Japanese don't want to hurt THEIR "hardcore" market. (Goodpenguin, I'm not sure if that answered your question, but I feel like this got a bit long already, if you want me to discuss or explain my opinion further though, lemme know, I'd be glad to as it's been a personal point of opinion for a while now) |
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crilix
Posts: 208 |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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So you feel that they have lost their hardcore fans? I'm not exactly clear if it's that or just that they need more of a low cost business model? If it's the former can you elaborate? If it's the latter:
I think this is they key point. Licensing fees. Potentially the biggest mistake they made was letting them get so over inflated. (I say potentially though because I'm not sure if it is their fault or the fault of the Japanese companies.) It's also the key point in what your saying though. Focusing on the smaller, more dedicated group only works if it also results in a drop in costs because that group is already buying right now and it isn't enough. (Again, unless you're saying they have somehow lost these people). Would this shift in focus have kept costs lower though? It it means you cut out dubs then that helps. However, Licensing fees are really the most costly aspect. I wonder if they had taken this different approach if they would be much lower? It's tricky to say.
The word does mean something:
There is no added requirement of contributing or whatever else to be a fan. By simply having an active interest in [x] you are by definition a fan of [x]. Your point is valid but your terminology is incorrect. You could say people who contribute nothing are not supporters of anime though which again, would be valid. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Pedantry. |
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