Forum - View topicRe: The Price and Practicality of Dubs for R1 Anime
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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(This is not meant to be a dub/sub debate. This isn't meant for arguing which language validates a viewer's experience of anime or whatever. This isn't meant to force those who refuse to buy sub-only discs to purchase them. It should be evident in the thread title and the post's content what this is about.)
Split off from this page of the review of the second Shuffle! volume. As the thread was getting off-topic but I wished to clarify a few points, I decided to create a new thread.
Fair enough. But advising people to be content with watching fansubs and buying overly-priced R2 DVDs over the far cheaper and easier to obtain sub-only R1 DVDs is ridiculous. You're advocating prime consumer choice in one area (English dubs being a necessity for your purchase) yet ignoring another, more universal one (far, far cheaper domestic products).
But not necessarily the price of producing an a dub (at least $10,000 an episode depending on the series, from what industry and ANN staff have said), which you are not considering. It's unrealistic to want every single title to be dubbed in English, unless you want the companies the go out of business so far fewer anime can be brought over, period. (See my Fighting Spirit example.) The companies releasing the anime could very well be another major factor. FUNimation clearly has more impact in North American sales of anime DVDs through their choice of licenses, advertising, retail relationships, etc. than, say, a company that is (soon becoming) moving to more niche series like Right Stuf. In-house dubbing versus commissioning an expensive one at New Generation Pictures is also another factor to consider. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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However, the cost of those dubs is insignificant next to the price of the license. As long as they're paying out a fortune to the Japanese companies for the rights, the dub isn't going to be a huge impact. The idea is that the dub will pay for itself in the end, and in many cases that is likely the case. The problem here is that, in the end, nobody here is going to have access to the numbers or the information necessary to make a solid argument. What it comes down to is people just finding an excuse to bully fans of dubs because apparently consumer choice only matters as long as that choice benefits the single user. I'm well aware of the economics behind a dub, and how it fits in to the equation of cost versus market increase. Believe it or not this is something that you get in just about any industry. Companies are always faced with ways to improve their product to broaden their consumer base, but this costs extra money. That's why they have people on staff generally with knowledge in economics to determine the likely market increase versus added cost per product. They then determine if that cost increase will likely yield enough increase in purchases to warrant taking that action. Generally these don't even increase the bottom line because if they don't believe it will pay for itself, generally they aren't going to do it. This is standard business and has been since well before you could even knew what an economy was. Have to tell you now though, this is on thin ice. You're promoting an argument over something that can never be argued since the information required to make a concrete point is missing. If it gets to the point it seems people are just bullying each other with their viewpoints then I'm afraid we're done. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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(I'm contradicting myself a bit below, that's because I'm rethinking things and have changed my mind a little on this issue, so don't think that I lied or anything originally
 )
Well since you put this here I'll put one thing I didn't say in the original thread. I'll admit to being a bit selfish, since I did not previously. I will say though, that I don't think I'm more selfish than anyone else is here. People in general are selfish (wanting things for themselves over wanting things for others). For this reason I don't want sub-only distribution to succeed. Because it is so much less expensive for R1 distributors my fear is it would succeed, and more distributors would decide to scrap dubs altogether. If it were too successful I believe dubs would be very rare. To this point the R1 companies have believed dubs essential to continued success and market growth. In a time when the market is not expanding, it probably looks to them like dubs are not doing what they should be. So if all this "sub-only" succeeds at the same level as the dub would expected to have, I suspect there will be tons more sub-only releases over time. My problem with this is that I like dubs, and don't want to see them discontinue. I'd rather see less releases, and more dubs, than more releases and less dubs. I know that others are on the opposite end of the spectrum here, but I don't think I am more selfish than they are. They don't care about me, and.. yes, I don't care about them either. I don't really believe in balance here, I think companies discontinuing dubs is a sort of test, and that they are really trying to determine the effectiveness of that kind of release. I don't believe this has nearly as much to do with the lack of popularity of specific titles as others do. I think it is all about finding out what the exact profit margins are and going with what earns the most money. That's obviously good business, but doesn't really help dub fans at all. Anyhow, if I turn out to be wrong and this sub-only release thing is not a test, but is just for niche titles, then I'm not really going to care about it one way or another. I still won't like it, but there might be things I would buy that way. As of now though I'd prefer not to support it. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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But as per a recent interview with Gen Fukunaga, initial licensing fees are often now completely waved, or at least greatly reduced. This is the case ever since the practical shut down of Geneon, who would often demand top dollar and even bid on shows they didn't plan on getting just to raise the price for everyone else, or to guarantee they got the show they wanted*. A strong impression was left that many contracts these days are royalty only. You would think that this would lead to an easier choice whether to make a dub or not. Yet the trend has been leaning to not make a dub. Why is that? I don't really have a good answer for that one, I am just adding it to the conversation. For the record, I wish all anime DVDs would get the dub treatment. This isn't the ninties anymore and most dubs are competent and well made. As a consumer, my opinion of them has changed over the course of the last ten years or so. *As we all know ADV would also only be too happy to oblige Geneon and cause bidding wars. Driving prices through the roof. The writting on the wall now, is that ADV is in trouble from all of its money pits. So I doubt they are doing this now. Licenses should be cheaper than ever. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Well abandoning dubs will all but guarantee the market will remain stagnant and perhaps drop market shares even further. While a slower marketplace does make cuts more likely, it also makes them more risky as they can't afford to lose even more sales.
One thing you have to consider when it comes to economics is that it's pretty much never ever ever as simple as you think it is. Marketplaces encompass thousands of people and a ridiculous number of variables, that's why companies hire people with degrees who do nothing more than analyze information full time for those people. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah, as Keonyn already kinda said, producing a dub always comes down to a question of cost versus the number of sales it will generate. We really have no idea what these numbers might be. Companies however put a lot of effort into analyzing this. So for me, I'm going to accept that if a company deems it profitable to make a dub, chances are reasonably good that it is. If they don't think it is, then it probably isn't.
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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I can't say I have any numbers, figures, knowledge or experience with the subject matter. But as a consumer, I love well done dubs. I love hearing some voice actors, even if I hear them a bit TOO much with the limited pool, in my favorite anime.
I waited a year+ between watching Full Metal Panic/Fumoffu and TSR simply because TSR had not been licensed or dubbed and I adore the english cast. My heart will seriously break if any more seasons are produced and then released in the US as sub only. I remember hearing about how well witchblade did, atleast comparing to other anime dvds. In this case, I could not see a sub only release doing as well since anyone buying the dvds being fans of the original american versions would probably want to hear english. The numbers pretty much spoke for themselves that more people than just regular anime fans were buying and I work at blockbuster so I know the average person(atleast around here) detests "reading" movies. I'm holding my breath, hoping the industry doesn't absolutely collapse and that I can continue to watch a good deal of anime in english. I've watched plenty in both languages, more in japanese I'm sure. A question I have, does anyone have....anything, a website or article, that is directly tied to or could apply to this situation? As has been stated, it just seems like a lot of conjecture from unexperienced fans who have no grasp of the true situation.(Of course I'm including myself) |
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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I have the impression that licenses vary dramatically between titles. Compared to that the cost of a dub is not as variable.
I think that companies like Media Blasters probably don't pay too much for some of their more specialized titles (that don't get a dub) and can recoup the license fees without selling too many units. The more "fixed" price of a dub would be hard to justify, especially since the $10,000 will need to be split amongst fewer units sold. Theoretical point: If only 1000 units sold at $30 that would be 1/3 of the cost is in the dub. In something that is super popular like the current Viz lineup the license is probably much more expensive, but the dub probably still only costs around $10,000. In this case it would be stupid not to have a dub since the dub's cost will most likely only come out to a few dollars per DVD at most if the title sells 3000+ units. It is also a factor of the dub cost being a smaller ratio to the licensing fee which make the dub even more practical for best sellers. I see the Media Blasters model as one that makes sense since the dub cost is relatively fixed. Cheaper licenses are hard to justify the dub especially if it isn't expected to sell well. The dub cost for a more popular series gets divided amongst so many units that it isn't a significant factor. |
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Xenofan 29A
 Posts: 378 |
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It might be an odd exception, but my college's anime club is firmly against watching anything dubbed. Even making a joke about it gets you an odd look or two. I really don't know anyone in real life (but like I said, this is more likely the exception than the norm) that prefers dubbed anime. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6896 Location: Kazune City |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Hating on new dubs generally just seems ignorant to me, atleast in the way that "they're awful!" instead of "I like japanese better". However my point wasn't to people like them.
Witchblade sold better than the average anime because people must have bought it that normally are not anime watchers or atleast that don't purchase anime dvds often. How else could it sell so well? I gave it a 6 and while I find most people rating it higher than myself, I would hardly say it's of such high quality that they HAVE to buy it whereas a lot of other series ranked higher by the majority get snuffed out. The people not into the whole "japanimation" thing would most likely not want to get a sub only release. I just don't see the worth of a "hardcore" bunch of anime fans in a club as a meter to test the waters. And if you'd like to meet me Xenofan, you can say you do know someone who prefers dubs(well done and mostly newer of course). |
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Xenofan 29A
Posts: 378 |
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Thanks for the offer, but I'm from New England. It's quite a ways off... |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Yeah, but there's really no such thing as a fixed cost, especially in regards to a service. Even commodity prices aren't necessarily fixed, as the market fluctuates over time. A dub cost isn't really fixed because different companies or actors will price things differently, not to mention the number of actors needed, lines spoken and time required can greatly vary the cost of a dub. I agree with Vortextk as well. When the companies are looking at the value of the dub to broaden sales, the hardcore fans who are in the anime clubs aren't the people they're looking at, so that isn't an accurate gauge at all. That's like taking a political poll at the Republican National Convention, the results just won't indicate the diversity of reality. |
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Primus
 Posts: 2802 Location: Toronto |
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I applaud ImaginAsian's technique. I find it quite disheartening that there are more Sub-Only Media Blasters release, than ADV releases at my local HMV. I have no problem with Sub-Only releases. As long as they don't find a way into mass retailers. Anime is already niche, Sub Only anime is even more niche. I for one will not buy a anime series unless it has English on it. I'm not saying I love all English dubs. Just that I enjoy having the option of listening and watching something, rather than reading it.
So, back to ImaginAsian. They chose to release their sub-only releases, of older series, via an On Demand DVD production. I love this. For those not in the know, on demand DVDs are DVDs produced for each order obtained, rather than produced on large masses and then shipped to retailers as they are now, they are often barebones releases on DVD-Rs. I feel that if you're willing to own a show of a lower key, that doesn't have a dub, you're willing to order a legitimate release on the internet. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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As a big supporter of dubs, I find this new sub-only approach disheartening. I think a major problem is anime companies have not done a good job of marketing their product. They focus exclusively on hard core anime fans, many of whom not only illegally downloading and won't spend a dime to support R1 anime, but are also of the mindset that anything released by an American company isn't any good. What they need to do is to go outside the fan base and create new fans. Yes, I know it's scary and many anime fans are protective of their precious anime but it's a necessary step and it can be done. But it can not be done with subs only. It's a well known fact that most Americans don't like to read their movies.
But, you say, it is possible to turn an ordinary person onto anime? Yes, my husband and I recently had a friend over, who is probably at least 40. He had never really seen anime before. We went and bought Hell Girl Vol. 1. He watched it, he liked it, he wants to see more anime. But would he have watched it if it was subbed only? Probably not. |
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