Forum - View topicWhy do so many people think older manga fans are perverts?
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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I believe that many have read the news of discussion on Library Bars 43-Year-Old from Manga Club Meeting. So here's my question: why do so many (ANN) people think older manga fans are perverts?
Each year, Taipei International Book Exhibition asks prominent political and cultural/educational figures to recommend manga. For those who can't read that page, you can just click on those links and see the thumbnail of covers and may recognize some; two manga have English titles in respective native forms (REAL and NANA). You get a cookie when you identify others correctly. 
Seriously, recommenders include directors of bureau of cultural affairs of various cities and counties; mayors, congresspersons and city/county council members; university chancellors, deans, and professors; artists, writers and entrepreneurs. Most, if not all, of them, are over 40. That's why I was more bewildered than angered when I saw GATSU's opener. Just why do so many ANN users (and I assume those are American) think that older manga fans are freaks/perverts/pedophiles and their purpose of attending cons/clubs is nothing but hunting their preys? Instead of "Hey!" I was like, "Huh?!", because being a manga reader myself for a quarter of a century, such baseless accusation has never crossed my mind. There's no such atmosphere in our society either, or those prominent figures wouldn't relate themselves with manga. Opinions welcomed, and thanks in advance. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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Unfortunately, I know the answer. In America, and maybe the West, in general, comics are perceived as being for children. And anime/manga has only recently just appeared on the American mainstream consciousness. At the moment, most manga/anime fans are teenagers and most of what gets released here, at least recently, is aimed at them. So people who are unaware of the history of anime/manga popularity in the US assume that it's something that's only popular with young people. On top that, pedophilia has become a major concern in this country, so much so that any adult who wants to spend time with kids for any reason is automatically suspect. It's sad really, not to mention a bit paranoid, but that's what it's come to. Especially, when in reality, most children are molested by people they know, not strangers.
And it's not just older anime/manga fans but older videogamers encounter the same stigma. My husband is in his early 30's and still plays video games and buys the latest consoles. But some people think it's sad someone his age plays video games and some would suspect that maybe he's a "dirty old man". But he is a decent person who would never harm a child and all those games are for him. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah, I think thats pretty much it. I'm still rather shocked by the reactions from fans though. I find their responses a lot more irksome than that of the library. I understand their reaction when some 40 year old shows up to a club they assumed was for something for kids. (Although I agree they didn't really have the right to kick him out and didn't have to be rude.) However, I would expect other fans to know better than these inaccurate stereotypes.
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Sandstar
Posts: 196 |
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How many 47 year old men want to spend an afternoon surrounded by teenagers? I don't think it's neccesarily older manga readers (I read manga, and I'm 33) it's older manga readers that go to manga clubs meant for teenagers that people think are creepy. My local library has a manga club for teens, and I was kind of interested until I saw that it was for teens only. I just went "Darn" and forgot about it. I didn't make a big fuss, sue the library, and bitch that my civil rights have been violated. |
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rinmackie
Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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Yes, but how many manga clubs do you know of that aren't for teens or college students? None around here where I live, that's for sure. Yes, it would be nice if the library would have a manga club for adults but I expect hell to freeze over first.
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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dormcat -
I broadly agree with rinmackie's post that in the English speaking world comics are, unfortunately, generally regarded as being for children - as are computer games and tabletop games - by mainstream society. Having said that, traditionally, adult comic fans have been seen as ultra-geeks with poor social skills (think of the Comic Book Guy character from the Simpsons) rather than as perverts. Hopefully, that perception of comic readers as social outcasts will change over time - it is already starting to do so with computer games and if manga continues to grow in popularity (along with a growing critical appreciation for literary graphic novels such as Persepolis and Maus) I imagine the same will apply to graphic novels in the future.
This is GATSU we're talking about...you shouldn't read too much into what he says... I would also like to point out that the vast majority of the people posting on that thread (a) don't appear to have read the article and (b) are leaping to completely unsubstantiated conclusions on both extremes (either "He's a paedophile!" or "He's being oppressed!").
I don't actually think this has all that much to do with manga fans. I think it has far, far more to do with a general suspicion of men who spend a lot of time in close proximity to children that aren't their own. The idea of the predatory priest, scout master, teacher, sports coach or other adult in a position of trust or authority over kids has become deeply ingrained in Western society over the past few decades. That's partly due to actual incidences of abuse (it's not suprising that paedophiles often seek employment or activities that will put them in close proximity to children*) but more particularly due to the media's eagerness to endlessly promote and exaggerate scare stories. Scaring people - with paedophilia, with serial killers, with terrorism (etc.) - sells newspapers and magazines and TV shows. We're now at the point where any man spending time with other people's kids or teens is pretty much automatically suspect, especially if he has no professional reason for doing so. *: Hence the fact that background checks of anyone who works with or around children (including that hypothetical elementary school teacher you mentioned on the other thread) are mandatory in most Western nations. ---
I'm about the same age as you and, yeah, that was pretty much my reaction to the story too.
Many libraries would be quite happy for you to set up such a club but they'd expect you to do the work, just as they would if you wanted to use the library as the home of a roleplaying game club, a local history society or whatever other group you might want to found. They'll go to the trouble of setting up a club on behalf of teens specifically because that's a demographic they particularly want to encourage to use libraries. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Then, workers at food factories or big fast food chains should have background checks because just in case if one of them tries to poison the food and cause panic among general population. Likewise, workers at water treatment plants, power plants, gas companies and all other public utilities should have their workers checked too. Furthermore, all doctors, nurses, medical technicians, and even janitors working at hospitals should have their backgrounds checked for hospital workers have easier access to toxics and biological hazardous materials. And the ultimate crisis: what if some background checkers trying to falsify background records for their personal gain? Arrrrgh! Must have background checks on those background checkers! And for background checkers' checkers! And... 
Bull's eye. ----
I'm pretty sure that both of you have missed a key point:
The underlined part. We don't know how exactly he was treated, but couldn't be nicely, possibly sarcastically or even discriminatively. It could be just a single word or mumble, but I'd say it was the last straw. I could almost imagine the scenario: one librarian was busy explaining to Palmer that it was a simple typographical error that didn't include the age limit on the flier, trying to keep things under control, when another librarian in the background mumbled "creep." Palmer overheard it and blew his top: "That's it. You've crossed the line and I'm gonna sue you all!" ---- Nobody wants to read the page I linked? (shrug)
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I think that is a key point as well in that we do not know what exactly was said. Yet for some reason people are jumping to the conclusion that he must have overreacted. I don't really get that. Shouldn't you generally give people the benefit of the doubt when you have no information indicating otherwise?
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Althalus
 Posts: 47 Location: NRW / Germany |
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Unfortunately stuff like that can be a real problem. There's a certain nationwide anime/manga/japanophile club here in Germany with many local gatherings. I tried one out once, but I'm nearing 30 while the other attendees were 15-19, max. It's not that they had any problems with me being there, but our interests in the medium just were too different. They weren't interested in what manga I read and I wasn't interested in what they did (mainly watch anime, draw into their "con-hons", role-play and do cosplay photo shoots). We were part of the same fandom, but we didn't have the same interests. On the other hand, that specific club does seem to attract the more "active" kind of fan much more than passive readers like me, so it probably was to be expected. I just don't go there anymore. It's fun to see them from afar, though, when they're about in costume (and in droves), on the way to their meeting places... ^^; ~Althalus |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Employers already have the right to find out if applicants have a criminal record (and if so what it consists of) and can do other background research at their own expense. Frankly, I wouldn't be suprised if more thorough background checking of employees became common over time - it seems to be the way things are moving. For the moment though, special regard is paid to people working with children - not least because it allows employers to claim they took "reasonable measures" and avoid being taken to court for gross negligence if an incident does occur.
Already happens (with the exception of the janitors who aren't supposed to have access to either patients or drugs), at least here in the UK.
Yes...it does all get a bit Franz Kafka sometimes. Welcome to the bureaucracy.
I didn't miss the point. It's just that here in Europe the idea of taking somebody to court because they were rude to you (or over any other trivial matter) is pretty alien to us. The habit of making some quick cash by sueing absolutely everybody over absolutely anything is seen very much as being an American phenomenon in Europe. Maybe it's a cultural thing but, over here, the idea of taking legal action over such a trivial matter is generally seen as being greedy and petty.
That's possible. But does getting called a creep really entitle you to punitive damages? Shouldn't people have a thicker skin than that? Personally, I would have thought such rudeness from a public servant should result in an apology (from both the staff member at fault and his or her manager). I don't think it really merits taking money out of the library service to put into his pocket though. How would you feel if someone who asked a stupid question here on ANN and got a rude response from you decided to sue you for inflicting an "emotional trauma" on them? |
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Mylene
 Posts: 2792 Location: Indiana |
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I don't think you realize how common background checks are in the U.S., dormcat. I've had a background check for every real job I've held: clerical assistant for an engineering business office (university), research assistant for a transportation safety office (university), intern at a research library, and graduate assistant at a university library. They're pretty much par for the course if you're going to be working with children or information or if you're in health care and related fields.
Anyway, my husband and I discussed this a bit last night, and right as I started to mention one of my views, he was coming to the same conclusion: if this had been a 43-year-old attractive and well-dressed woman, it's possible that while she might not have been allowed to join, she might have been allowed to sit in for the first meeting to discuss what she'd brought. It's not the older manga fans that are perceived as creepy, it's older male manga fans. Women just aren't perceived as potential pedophiles, even though they most certainly can be. Heck, they'd probably be more likely to assume she was a parent of one of the teens in there as well. Now libraries that truly stick to fair policies wouldn't do this, but let's face, when it comes to interacting with youths, sexism and ageism go hand in hand. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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I shouldn't be surprised. I've read a report that an average Londoner gets caught by ~450 security cameras a day.
I said it could be the last straw, not the first.
#1 and #6 of AFI's 100 Quotes.
A very true and interesting point of view. If Mr. Palmer was not alone but with a similarly-aged female companion (regardless of their relationship), those librarians could have misidentify them easily as parents of teenagers. "You put your knife with a fork and a spoon and it looks quite innocuous. Perhaps you travel with a wife and child for the same reason." -- Pasha Antipov / Strelnikov, Doctor Zhivago |
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Moomintroll
Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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But if it takes only a few inconsequential straws to break the camel's back it tends to suggest there's something wrong with the camel. I just genuinely don't see how the threat of legal action is a valid (or dignified) response to a minor irritation. Just out of interest, is this kind of litigation common in Taiwan? |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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It seems to me that you are continually misrepresenting the issue. Moreover, you are repeating yourself in this regard so much that I can't help but think that this misrepresentation is deliberate. The issue is not that he was turned away. The issue is that when he attempted to register a complaint, he was treated rudely. We don't know what happened -- but given the remarks in the other thread, it is the most likely hypothesis that the librarians' "rudeness" consisted of a not-so-veiled suggestion that he was there to seduce children, instead of as a legitimate fan. If, and I say if, that is the case, then it is a reasonable cause for litigation. If a public employee more or less calls you a paedophile to your face, is that a "minor irritation"? Is it really "unreasonable" to seek redress for a public insult to your good reputation? Of course not. - abunai |
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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While a valid point, we have to take into the context that the advertisement for the event that the man saw did not indicate any age restrictions. Had he seen a "TEENS ONLY" flag on there and decided to show up anyway, then I wouldn't defend him. At that point, if he wanted to do something for the club, he should have gone through the proper channels (library staff approval, possible library staff chaperon, etc.). But, as indicated by the news article, the advertisement he saw wasn't marked with an age restriction. To me, I think it is just as likely it was an honest mistake more than anything else. I agree with abunai that the response he received from the staff is more how this blew up as it has, not really him being rejected from attending. But, to get back to dormcat's question - what is it that makes adult manga (/anime) fans get lumped in with the perverts or whatever else: sure, sensationalism from media outlets about people abusing authority with children coupled with the misconception about your average comic book guy (well, there are a lot of the nerd spectrum who share this stereotype) but I think it also has a lot to do with how the fandom has skewed. As Randall Miyashiro and another (who originally posted it and I forget their name, my apologies) noted: clubs used to have a minimum aage requirement. Back then, when people who are now in their forties and fifties were getting into it, they were in their twenties and thirties. And everyone was practically there, or close enough to it. But, as anime has exploded the fanbase is now skewing younger and younger. People in their twenties are almost considered "old" now. This isn't the first instance that I've seen distaste for older fans. There was a discussion on another forum when news about Providence Anime Conference first broke in which a poster likened any anime fan over the age of twenty to fitting the creepy, stalker stereotype. At its heart, I think it is an opinion shaped by culture, just as Taiwan, perhaps because of proximity and cultural ties to Japan, is culturally different in its view towards manga. |
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