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Answerman - Is Overtourism in Japan Real and Why is Japan Mad at Tourists?


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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2273
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 9:31 pm Reply with quote
I hear taking up public space drives Japanese folks bonkers. I think it's mostly because of us (Westerners) being used to having more space and Japanese people being used to a lack of it.

The way I hear it, there's an unspoken rule of walking in groups no wider than two, whereas my family has definitely done the clueless "we're very obviously lost" aimless spin in place as we try to get our bearings in an unfamiliar place. Kinda' dreading the day we go to Japan because we're very easily excitable and tend to speak loudly, which are both big no-nos over there. ^^;
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Piglet the Grate



Joined: 25 May 2021
Posts: 851
Location: North America
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 9:32 pm Reply with quote
Note that the rules about not spreading out on the train and/or eating do not apply after a 7G apocalypse has occurred. Wink

Jerome Mazandarani in Article wrote:
Eating in parking lots


Does this include roadside stations? Are Koguma, Reiko, and Shii being bad bikers when they make salmon sandwiches and eat them in the parking lot in Episode 12 of Super Cub (although Shii wielding a full-size bread knife might raise some eyebrows)?

Jerome Mazandarani in Article wrote:
Don't eat on the street, sidewalk, or inside the convenience store or fast food restaurant. Take-out means you take it home or to your office.


Why do we then see so many of the Japanese Anime People buying or bringing food and eating it in public places?
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6378
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:19 pm Reply with quote
WizardOfOss wrote:
As for those do's and don'ts: It's all about using common sense and not being an a**hole. Which unfortunately is pretty hard for some people. It would probably help a lot if they would just ban all tourists from one certain country...


Which would be wholly impractical since bad tourists come from all countries not just one. Which would also include native tourists.

As you said the problem here is people not bothering to use proper common sense or not reconciling with customs and the like, that if something is okay in your country that doesn’t mean it’s okay in another. Or if something is disallowed in your country it’s likely to be disallowed in another country,

Carving initials into historical monuments or private property is something that should be pretty obvious as something you shouldn’t do. As is jumping or wading into fountains or or other bodies of water because you want to fill up your water bottle or do something awesomely, cool, epic. Among other examples of dumb behavior amount tourists.
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kgw



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Spain, EU
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 4:52 am Reply with quote
Piglet the Grate wrote:

Why do we then see so many of the Japanese Anime People buying or bringing food and eating it in public places?

For the same reason we see students at the rooftop of their schools: needs of the plot. They are usually closed.

Also
Quote:
to beat the 2019 record of 31 million visitors [in Japan]

Laughs at 85.1 million visitors in Spain
We also have rude, loud, disrespectful, clogging up main roads and even neighbours, eating what you shouldn't where you shouldn't, NO HABLO SPANOL... tourists. Much more than Japan. It's just that the Japanese aren't used to it... yet Japanese agencies at all levels of government are launching tourist campaigns all over the world. (Anecdote: The staff at the Expo 2025 Osaka stand at Manga Barcelona claimed: "We want lots of tourists to come to Osaka").
Should foreign visitors behave in other countries? Absolutely. The other question is whether Japan wants tourists at all and if they are ready to deal with them.
And also, we're at ANN, it's obvious that everything happening at Japan is gonna get overblown.
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WizardOfOss



Joined: 19 Jun 2018
Posts: 113
Location: Oss, Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:22 am Reply with quote
Piglet the Grate wrote:
Jerome Mazandarani in Article wrote:
Don't eat on the street, sidewalk, or inside the convenience store or fast food restaurant. Take-out means you take it home or to your office.


Why do we then see so many of the Japanese Anime People buying or bringing food and eating it in public places?

Because Japanese are human too...

I feel this "rule" is often kinda exaggerated. Japanese do eat on the streets, but they usually won't do it while walking (that's the true no-no here), anywhere inside in a public space, or standing somewhere obstructing others, where it could make a mess. As for convenience stores, many of the bigger ones (countryside rather than in the big cities) do have a few seats where you can eat what you just bought. As for fastfood restaurants, don't order takeout when you want to eat there, though I kinda doubt it will actually bother anyone (they'll probably assume it's just a case of miscommunication).

But most important part in all cases: Don't make a mess. Take your trash with you and don't spill food around the place.

BadNewsBlues wrote:
WizardOfOss wrote:
As for those do's and don'ts: It's all about using common sense and not being an a**hole. Which unfortunately is pretty hard for some people. It would probably help a lot if they would just ban all tourists from one certain country...


Which would be wholly impractical since bad tourists come from all countries not just one. Which would also include native tourists.

As you said the problem here is people not bothering to use proper common sense or not reconciling with customs and the like, that if something is okay in your country that doesn’t mean it’s okay in another. Or if something is disallowed in your country it’s likely to be disallowed in another country,

Carving initials into historical monuments or private property is something that should be pretty obvious as something you shouldn’t do. As is jumping or wading into fountains or or other bodies of water because you want to fill up your water bottle or do something awesomely, cool, epic. Among other examples of dumb behavior amount tourists.


Sure, the true idiots that do the nasty stuff are from anywhere, but those are luckily still just a few.

Of course I wasn't completely serious, but what I was aiming at was more the big group that just seems oblivious to anything around them: The ones that go stand in the middle of the road for that perfect picture of Lawson & Fuji ignoring any traffic, of going against the stream at any train station, of being loud anywhere they go (and especially on trains), or hauling around big luggage at places where you wonder why they even have it with them in the first place*.And pretty sure 90% of those are all from one and the same country...
(* Two weeks ago I was visiting Matsue Castle, and there was this group hauling around big suitcases at the castle grounds, and they actually wanted to take it with them into the castle tower and made a fuzz when that wasn't allowed. If you ever visited a Japanese castle, you'll know those involve lots of (usually steep and narrow) stairs. Just put the stuff in a locker at the station, or leave it at your hotel....).
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WizardOfOss



Joined: 19 Jun 2018
Posts: 113
Location: Oss, Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:57 am Reply with quote
kgw wrote:
Quote:
to beat the 2019 record of 31 million visitors [in Japan]

Laughs at 85.1 million visitors in Spain
We also have rude, loud, disrespectful, clogging up main roads and even neighbours, eating what you shouldn't where you shouldn't, NO HABLO SPANOL... tourists. Much more than Japan. It's just that the Japanese aren't used to it... yet Japanese agencies at all levels of government are launching tourist campaigns all over the world. (Anecdote: The staff at the Expo 2025 Osaka stand at Manga Barcelona claimed: "We want lots of tourists to come to Osaka").
Should foreign visitors behave in other countries? Absolutely. The other question is whether Japan wants tourists at all and if they are ready to deal with them.
And also, we're at ANN, it's obvious that everything happening at Japan is gonna get overblown.

Yeah, it's kinda funny that before the pandemic Japan did everything they could to promote tourism, and very much succeeded in that. And nobody complained.

Then came 2020, and reset everything. And let's just say the way Japan handled the whole situation wasn't ideal, and especially Kyoto went into deep financial trouble.

Recovery went quicker than they could really handle, but now only reinforced the problems that were already there. Especially Kyoto never really had the infrastructure for mass tourism, and now it shows more than ever. Meanwhile promoting tourism in Japan is still always about the same few places, and social media doesn't help either. And the massive price hike for the Japan Rail Pass was the final nail in the coffin for people travelling beyond those places, as local transportation was suddenly much more complicated and expensive.

And Japan being cheaper than ever....sure, the yen is cheap (at least for most foreigners), but at the same time intercontinental flights, hotels and long distance travel in Japan have only gotten more expensive, and after so many years of standstill even Japan faces some inflation. As a result, my post-pandemic trips have surely been more expensive than my pre-pandemic trips. The yen has to drop a lot further to compensate for that.

As for the comparrison with Spain, I have to shamefully admit I still haven't been there (even when it's just a short flight), but as far as I know mass tourism is mostly seasonal at places that basically just exits for that purpose. And even in a city like Barcelona, I think it's still just some particular areas? Meanwhile in Japan tourism is very much focussed on a few cities and a handful of small places around those. And while big cities like Tokyo and Osaka can handle that, Kyoto with it's poor infrastructure and those small towns just can't.

Also would be interesting to see the number of tourists muliplied by the number of days they stay there. Keep in mind our Europe is small, and especially with low cost airlines a good chunk of those 85 million will probably just be city trips for a long weekend or so. Even for most countries in that corner of the world, getting to Japan takes more time and money, not many people will just visit Japan for a 3 day city trip and fly back home.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 2992
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:32 am Reply with quote
Dumas1 wrote:
Anyone remember that case from the 90s where an American in Singapore was sentenced to a caning for chewing gum? That's a bit extreme, but some people only learn to act civilized after seeing consequences for not doing so.

Some of the "Do's & Don'ts" list comes down to different standards of etiquette, but most of this stuff isn't ok to do at home. There seems to be something about paying to be somewhere that makes people go a bit crazy. Airplanes, restaurants, fan conventions, other countries, there've been a lot of stories the last few years about people just not controlling themselves when they leave the house.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Michael_Fay

Break the law and get what you deserve. Not the first time the ANN forum users will dredge up obscure cases to press their agenda without heed of the facts.
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CheerSong



Joined: 29 Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Location: Route 7, Kanto
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 9:37 am Reply with quote
My one request is not to stand in front of ticket stalls or stairways when trying to figure out where you are. Some of us have to get to the office. Move move move!!
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5974
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Dumas1 wrote:
Anyone remember that case from the 90s where an American in Singapore was sentenced to a caning for chewing gum? That's a bit extreme, but some people only learn to act civilized after seeing consequences for not doing so.

Some of the "Do's & Don'ts" list comes down to different standards of etiquette, but most of this stuff isn't ok to do at home. There seems to be something about paying to be somewhere that makes people go a bit crazy. Airplanes, restaurants, fan conventions, other countries, there've been a lot of stories the last few years about people just not controlling themselves when they leave the house.


Quote:
In 1994, a court in Singapore sentenced an American teenager, Michael Fay, to be lashed six times with a cane for violating the Vandalism Act. This caused a temporary strain in relations between Singapore and the United States.[1]

Fay was arrested for stealing road signs and vandalizing 18 cars over a ten-day period in September 1993.
from Wikipedia.

Wasn't for chewing gum.

Military personnel, business contractors, and government employees and their families are giving briefings and orientations for working in foreign countries. They and their families are warned what not to do, how to act, and what to do in incidents. Like getting involved in a vehicular accident. Which saved my butt, and resulted in a much friendlier reception with Japanese local and his family. Sad truth is that a lot of people just don't give a damn, and the kids are worse. And I am not talking about tourists, but American's that live in Japan due to the U.S. military, U.S. government workers, and business contractors. I was stationed in Japan for four years, and have made repeated visits as a contractor. I have seen young U.S. military personnel yell and scream at Japanese elementary school girls to scare them, like it was a big joke. So it is not just a tourist problem, but endemic across the spectrum of all visitors. Just no respect. Hell, we Americans destroy our own National Monument Parks for views or whatever. Don't think it is a problem that can be fixed abroad, but needs done at home. If you don't respect yourself, you sure aren't going to respect anybody else.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 02 May 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:24 pm Reply with quote
I've been lucky enough to have a lot of experiences abroad. I can't comment on Europe, though, since it's been about 20 years, and I'm sure the experience I had there was through the eyes of a teen without a lot of context.

I do have enough experience to comment on American and other tourists in general and their effect in hotspot areas in Japan and major U.S. cities (like the Manhattan/Times Square area of New York). To add to Jerome's advice, I personally abide by the following rules in ANY major metro area, regardless of country. The short version is to have spatial awareness about the people around you. You are not the main character.

Warning: this is kind of a rant.

1. If you don't know where you are or you need to reorient yourself STEP TO THE SIDE AGAINST THE WALL WHILE CHECKING YOUR PHONE. Blocking pedestrian traffic is rude in nicest countries and could get you shoulder checked in other places. In Japan [except in a few places where the following orientation is swapped], it is expected that if you are standing on an escalator, you stay to the left so those in a hurry can pass on your right.

2. You'll immediately notice that the locals all abide by the above the moment you get off the plane at the airport because people aren't standing in the middle of hallways looking at their phones, figuring out what to do like jackasses. Dealing with this again once I land in America drives me through the roof.

3. You will immediately know who else is a tourist in an area because they'll fail to do the above, which means clogging up pedestrian spaces.

4. Be ready when it's your turn, whether ordering food or going through customs. The folks at customs do not give a shit if you can't figure out how to fill out a small form in the hour+ of waiting in line (or did not do it online in advance). They will first politely gesture for you to step aside before just straight ignoring you. Otherwise, the process is pretty efficient.

5. If you're heavily tattooed or have large tattoos, a lot of onsen/spas still won't accommodate you.

6. Don't get plastered and then make passes at Japanese women on the subway. Shout out to the gross group of five+ middle-aged white men in matching knock-off embroidered track jackets; I still hate you.

7. On the opposite side of things, if you do stay out late with friends at karaoke and take the last subway home, you will likely encounter drunk Japanese people, too. They might pass out on you, and you'll find yourself silently communicating with the other man sitting across from you with just your eyes.

8. Generally speaking; other countries, people, and their cultures are not your photo op. Everything I put on this list can be rectified with self-awareness and consideration for others.
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WizardOfOss



Joined: 19 Jun 2018
Posts: 113
Location: Oss, Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 6:48 pm Reply with quote
ANN_Lynzee wrote:
5. If you're heavily tattooed or have large tattoos, a lot of onsen/spas still won't accommodate you.

Yeah, you still see those signs at most onsen and sento. And some even go as far as pointing out it doesn't matter if it's only a tiny tattoo, unless you cover it up it's not allowed.

That said, during my last trip I was surprised how often I did see tattooed people, despite those sings. And in most cases it weren't tourist with a small tribal or so. No, it were actually Japanese (or at least I would think so), with the big yakuza style tattoos.....exactly the kind of people they try to keep out with that ban on tattoos.

Wasn't a first though. A few years ago I visited Tokyo during the Sanja Matsuri, one of the few ocassions when everyone proudly shows their tattoos. And I stayed at an APA with public bath (and rooftop rotembure!) not far from Asakusa. With a strict ban on tattoos.....just for those few days absolutely no one cared. So usually I was the only tourist between a bunch of yakuza guys Anime smile + sweatdrop
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nyaa



Joined: 27 Oct 2022
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:10 am Reply with quote
It kinda reminds me of when I was in the service in the early 70's-our captain told us to observe the japanese during the times we had liberty try to act like they did. In other words, don't be obnoxious and be considerate. Ever hear of the term "The Ugly American"?
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MagicianMan



Joined: 28 Jun 2020
Posts: 126
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 4:29 am Reply with quote
While I 100% agree with these guidelines and agree about respecting the etiquette of another country in general, part of me can't help but chuckle at the horror the average Japanese must feel if they were to visit anywhere near where I live. It's everyone for themselves out there on a busy weekend in downtown and other people's rules and guidelines are just an obstacle to overcome for most.

Not to mention the piles of trash left in the wake of any actual parade or big celebration.
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:08 am Reply with quote
Dumas1 wrote:
Anyone remember that case from the 90s where an American in Singapore was sentenced to a caning for chewing gum?

As I recall, it was something along the lines of Lost In Translation. The Singapore government was having a dispute with the U.S. federal government and thought that the Feds would be humiliated by having a U.S. citizen being publicly punished with corporal punishment. Both the Singapore government and the mainstream U.S. media had no training in cultural anthropology and completely misread the cultural values of the other party.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 9:39 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Military personnel, business contractors, and government employees and their families are giving briefings and orientations for working in foreign countries. They and their families are warned what not to do, how to act, and what to do in incidents. Like getting involved in a vehicular accident. Which saved my butt, and resulted in a much friendlier reception with Japanese local and his family. Sad truth is that a lot of people just don't give a damn, and the kids are worse. And I am not talking about tourists, but American's that live in Japan due to the U.S. military, U.S. government workers, and business contractors. I was stationed in Japan for four years, and have made repeated visits as a contractor. I have seen young U.S. military personnel yell and scream at Japanese elementary school girls to scare them, like it was a big joke. So it is not just a tourist problem, but endemic across the spectrum of all visitors. Just no respect. Hell, we Americans destroy our own National Monument Parks for views or whatever. Don't think it is a problem that can be fixed abroad, but needs done at home. If you don't respect yourself, you sure aren't going to respect anybody else.


Thank you for serving the USA. I bolded the your quoted text for emphasis.
In regards to the military personnel and families having such warnings or briefings, sometimes they might not be briefed or warned about what to do or not to do in Event X at Location X. In that case, it might be best to ask a local what the smart thing to do is.
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