Forum - View topicNew Forum Rules 06/29/2018
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Kitsunelaine
 Posts: 123 |
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Here's the thing though. Anime tastes don't matter. Anime tastes are not a person's identity. They're a thing they like. (Or dislike, as it were.) Final Fantasy VII is my favourite video game of all time. I'm not going to feel offended if you call it a worthless sack of shit. Sure, I'll think that you don't see the same value in it I do. But it wouldn't make me never want to talk to you again. Now, if you attacked my sexuality or gender identity? I'd cut you out of my life. These two things are simply not the same. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6599 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Vaisaga,
What you're doing is precisely the sort of behaviour that's under the microscope. I don't recall other users harrassing you for being a straight, white male. No one has ever harrassed me for being a straight, white male - even before I became a mod. Your posts are disengenuous. When I see arguments for the protection of people like you or me, I read it as code for the dismissal of the grief endured by others. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13243 |
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Not necessarily that simple. You might like/hate it specifically because it has themes/content that affect you due to your identity. That's why people can get so worked up again that sort of thing.
You'd have a point if I was saying marginalized individuals shouldn't be protected as well. EVERYONE should be protected, but the wording of the new rules specifically say they're interested in marginalized people specifically. But silly me. I guess I should cancel the appointment with my therapist because I don't have any real problems. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6599 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Vaisaga, you're soapboxing. Stop.
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Snakebit1995
 Posts: 842 |
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From my understaqnding he's not talking about them intepreting the rules he's talking about holding themselvers to the rules. If the rules say don't be a jerk that means I can't be an ass to you and the mods or site contributors can't either, they don't get to be a jerk just cuase there a mod. If the rules say no running in the halls, the hall monitor doesn't get to run in the halls just cause he enforces that rule for the school. |
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Kendra Kirai
Posts: 187 |
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no, that's uh....precisely it. If they don't follow the rules they themselves are enforcing, that makes them hypocrites and abusers of power to quell any dissent and people who are pointing out said abuses. Just because you decide/enforce the rules doesn't mean you're exempt from them. Incidentally, I've noticed that as soon as the people who were for the rule change showed up the amount of personal attacks, dismissive language, jerkish behaviour, and making the thread feel unwelcome skyrocketed. |
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鏡
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The users don't determine when someone is or isn't violating the rules. This isn't a democracy, calling the enforcement of the rules on the basis of the interpretations of the mods an "abuse of power" is a fundamental misunderstanding of how forums work and what the power dynamic here is.
It does if you decide your behaviour doesn't constitute a violation of the rules. : /
This is a meaningless distinction because what exactly the mods are being held to will depend on their interpretation. Last edited by 鏡 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3013 |
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So some people in this thread (and I don't just mean Vaisaga, but others as well) have expressed concern that ANN is gonna start targeting straight white men or something. I'd invite everyone to read this statement again.
When it mentions race, it says "all people regardless of race", it is not "regardless of race, unless you're white". And so on. If you took "everyone is welcome here, regardless of identity" as an attack on straight white cis men, well, that's more on you than it is on the mods and staff here. But perhaps that's not what some are objecting to? Maybe it's this next paragraph.
Technically speaking that doesn't even mention minorities, but "marginalized people" (which can for example include women, who are not, actually, a minority.) But that is one brief paragraph, which addresses the fact that before now the ANN forums had become very UNWELCOMING to marginalized folks, and that paragraph doesn't even show up till after the "don't be a jerk" thing. It's a fairly minor thing. And it doesn't erase or invalidate what came before it, which includes both "don't be a jerk" and "everyone regardless of identity is welcome." Here's my reason for why I think some people may view these rules as specifically focused on minorities, or "marginalized folks" to be more precisely. Because that first section, that big opening mission statement, protects everyone equally from attacks based on identity... but by far the vast, vast majority of attacks like that are directed towards marginalized folks. So of course it will seem like a rule like that is focused on protecting them. And so for the most part, non-marginalized folks don't even NEED a rule like that. But that's not an example of the rules been biased or unfair to white/cis/etc folks, the rules are fair and equal. It's an example of the WORLD being biased against marginalized folks. |
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Snakebit1995
Posts: 842 |
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That was the point brought up in the first place, could the mods and contributors be trusted to self enforce, and who should be enforcing on them if they don't. Mojave provided clear examples of people working for or affiliated with the site breaking forum rules, and seemingly not having any punishments handed out. If you or I went into a thread and called someone a Nazi or a similar insult we would either have our message deleted and maybe even a ban/suspension. The same MUST apply to the site staff if they are going to enforce the rules on me I expect them to do the same to themselves/each other. I'll use Jacob as the example since Mojave did, if Jacob came in here and started calling people Nazi for the discussion earlier about the usage of certain words I would expect the mods to punish the same way they'd punish a regular user like me or you for doing that. |
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鏡
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It doesn't matter whether you feel you can trust them or not. They are the only enforcers.
This is just a list of expectations that you have. Site staff and mods are not beholden to them. |
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macattack
Posts: 257 |
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Reading over the revisions, I admit being concerned over how broad they seem. While the previous iteration was definitely subjective, it was also fairly loose, while this iteration seems to sharply veer in the other direction and cover too much ground.
For example, under this new iteration, civil discussion of the upcoming "Backstreet Girls" anime is probably going to be impossible. It is by all impressions an exaggerated and politically incorrect comedy. In previous threads on the show before it's launch, there is a sizable audience who find it hilarious but also a vocal plurality who find the material and the setup as a whole transphobic and offensive. There is little chance these audiences will get along, especially as it's likely the ANN staffer tasked with covering the show will side with those who view it as transphobic. I could be wrong of course, but the majority of the ANN staff especially Jacob strike me as likely to be either uncomfortable or hostile to it. What happens in this scenario? What happens if staff and forumgoers yell at each other? Will there be room for both sides in this discussion or will one side be pushed out? Also, the rules have a clear "American progressive" mentality to them. This is a global forum and there are fans all over the world raised in different environments? Do they catch any sort of break for not understanding American progressive viewpoints? Just a few of my concerns. Please have a good evening, or day if you live on the other side of the world. 
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
 Posts: 3794 Location: Montreal |
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Vaisaga, the important part of the rules is "Don't be a jerk". Towards anyone. Yes, even straight while males. Ideally, theoretically, the second rule should say "anyone" instead of "marginalized peoples", but in practice we've had issues with denigration/dismissal of marginalized peoples. So that's why we re-iterate the "Don't be a jerk" rule with that specific focus.
Kitsunelaine, you're also soapboxing, engaging in bad faith arguments, deliberately misconstruing what Vaisaga wrote, and being a jerk. I was this close to banning you. Mad_Scientist, you're awesome, I love you, you really get it. |
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Snakebit1995
Posts: 842 |
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I don’t understand where the disconnect is here man, we’re not talking about our expectations been enforced, we’re talking about the mods and contributors following the rules like the rest of us have to. If I’m not allowed to use insults or harass someone than neither are they. This isn’t about me expecting them to live up to what I want, this is me as a user of the site asking for the rules to be applied fairly to all regardless of position in the community. If I were to get banned or warned for callin another user a Nazi, the same must happen to other users who rom regaurdless of if they’re just a plain old user, another mod, or a writer for the site. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6599 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Trust me. My sister's a doctor. Jokes aside. The mods and staff have their own forum where we discuss our approach to people's behaviour on the forums. We don't always agree, but we back each other's actions. |
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鏡
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I think the disconnect lies in your belief that you are in a position to hold the mods accountable to anything. It is incredibly funny to me that so many of you treat this place like some kind of model government which "the people" must keep in check. As I've already said in this thread, that belief has grown within this website's userbase specifically because the mods have been so lax in the past. Do you think everyone who's been banned looked at the rules and said "yup, I guess they're right. I violated rule C15."?
What you consider an insult or harassment is completely irrelevant to what the mods are allowed or not allowed to do. Last edited by 鏡 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:35 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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