Forum - View topicAnswerman - How Is Christianity Regarded In Japan?
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FloozyGod
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I'd like to hear from an Australian about "specific ways" in which U.S. law enforces Christian believe, but you didn't give any. The FIRST AMENDMENT of the the U.S. Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Millennials have no "point", because we have nothing to complain about. Just as everyone shits on Christianity in the US, so to does the rest of the world shit the US. But remember you got your own issues too. Australia is only just now voting for same-sex marriage, so you should speak from your own experiences and not what you think you know about other places. Last edited by FloozyGod on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Velshtein
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This post (as well as your following ones) demonstrate that you clearly are not an American citizen. Christianity is largely seen in a negative light in the news media, Hollywood, pop culture, and academia over here. |
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Chrono1000
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jdnation
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For identifying as one, no. But certain beliefs of Christians can see them losing their jobs and being harassed for sticking to certain moral beliefs that aren't in vogue with the current liberal climate. But well, that's part and parcel of the faith. Christ never promised His followers a paradise on Earth, but rather that they should expect to be hated for the sake of their beliefs. The Book of the Apocalypse to St. John isn't describing a good time. So point of fact, the oppressed minority of Christians are those who actually stand up for their beliefs in public. Then there are the other in-name-only Christians who are happy to change their beliefs, no matter how contradictory, to go along with the culture.
This issue with the Church/State separation is fundamentally and philosophically flawed. A worldview faith always prevails, even including Liberalism, Atheism, or Freemasonic Multiculturalism where all faiths are treated as 'equals' despite their own inherent contradictions (which also makes them all equally worthless). So in a sense, even in America, Church/State separation can never truly exist. And its principles were built upon Revolutionary Freemasonic principles born from Protestantism, where rejecting the central unifying figure of the Pope and the Catholic Church, each man decided to interpret the Scriptures in his own way, which led to contradictions, which led to divisions, which led to wars, and which made it harder for non-Christians to receive a coherent consistent doctrine of what the faith actually is. This is why these ideas were condemned by the Catholic Church both in France and in America. This is also why the American Constitution was the best compromise possible and will last as long as it can until the divisions in society break. Logically, if a true religion exists, then naturally it would be the duty of the State and all people to follow it. Thus the State and Church have a shared responsibility to coordinate together in their own spheres of responsibility. The idea therefore of 'fundamentalism' isn't by itself bad. If the religion reflects the Truth, then being fundamental about it makes all the sense in the world, just as it would be to be fundamental about how mathematics is supposed to work. You would simply be in harmony with what is true. If there are problems and grave ones, then the problem lies either with the fact that the person fails to be fundamentally in line with what he professes to believe, or that the entire religion is itself flawed and therefore demonstrably false.
Atheist regimes have done their fair share of killing. Democracy and the various revolutionaries who sought to remove the Church from public life are all borne out of bloodshed of fellow men and clergy. So it's not as simple as that. I'd argue that Church/State separation is part of the problem, and all such states are inevitably ticking time bombs waiting to go off when a lack of a unified doctrine governs the people, eventually leading to tensions and conflict. America itself seems to be undergoing a similar period, which follows the failure of all other multicultural and democratic states in the past since Ancient Greece. Also since we're on the topic to differentiate between Islam and Christianity, doctrinally Islam does support a more militant approach, especially given the actions of its founder - the Prophet Mohammad. This doesn't mean Islam cannot be peaceful, but according to the Prophet both peaceful and war-like means were equally acceptable approaches. Versus the way Christianity has spread, which has been the missionary, worm-like approach. Not that Christianity hasn't had its own wars and conflicts, but at its core the mission to convert others wasn't by the sword, and there was no mission to set up any particular government structure, so the faith was compatible with accommodating any kind of structure whether monarchy or even republics, though monarchy was favored as the most stable and also reflecting the order to Heaven where God is sovereign, and thus with regards to the state, whatever the case of its structure God is to be its ruler in spirit and practice. Whereas in Islam a certain structure of government is always to be imposed under Shariah Law that is arbitrarily discriminatory to non-Muslims, whereas in Christianity, the law is to be applied to everyone equally, even those who were not of the faith, but with certain exceptions where positions of state power are concerned because, naturally, someone hostile to the faith taking power would have grave repercussions. Of course that was assuming the state itself was already Christian. Otherwise whereas Christians would live in non-Christian states, they were to subject themselves to the local authority, for even the pagan leaders held their positions as a result of God's providence, so far as nothing came into conflict with actions that were morally at odds with their beliefs. Thus as Christ said, "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God, the things that are God's." Thus paying taxes to and working alongside other pagans was fine, including being a soldier in their armies. But they could not worship the pagan gods or participate in cultural demands that imposed accepting immoral behavior or lifestyles. Anyway, all in all, liberalism can also be held with religious fervor and imposed, even brutally, upon Christians. All we're left with is of course, which ideology is actually right, for they all can't be right, but that's a conversation many don't want to engage in because naturally it will expose divisions and brings emotional turmoil that could lead to hot conflicts, so instead everyone tries to bury the topic until the center will not hold. So inevitably conflict and Armageddon is a thing that is going to happen. ------- With regards to the subject of worms. I've no issue with it and I'm sure Answerman wasn't trying to throw negativity on Christianity. It's a useful description of how small groups or influences become embedded in a culture. Culture's etymology as a word is tied to cultivation and the tilling of land in agriculture, in which worms have a very useful function. |
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Olderthandirt2
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Great discussions about the US and Christianity and the arts, but getting back to Christianity and Japan here are a couple of thoughts.
First, if you are interested in this topic there is a nice and very recent book on the topic "Holy Anime" that is quite readable. https://smile.amazon.com/Holy-Anime-Japans-View-Christianity/dp/0761869077/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1510875461&sr=8-1&keywords=holy+anime&dpID=51oSmGWXPJL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch Second, for a really nice look at an attempt to give a real world description of Christians in Japan (and was suggested twice before) take a look at "Kids on the Slope". Its on Crunchyroll. The story shows what it was like to be Catholic, poor, a hafu (half American half Japanese) in the early 1960s. Plus if you like jazz it if brilliant!! Third, if you want a totally different vies of Christianity in Japan hunt up "Seinto Oniisan" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Young_Men In the Movie, two OVAs, and Manga Jesus and Buddha take a vacation to Tokyo and take up a small apartment together. Hikaru Nakamura, the author of "Arakawa under the Bridge" largely plays this for laughs. She shows the give and take of the two as a chance to explore both religions and life in Japan. Despite the humor, the stories are not offensive (to me at least) and explore some of the ways that both faiths have been trivialized. Alas this series has not been released in the US. But there are French and German versions. |
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ajr
Posts: 465 |
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Interesting article, and there's some good comments here too.
regarding anime: despite it's name, Sword Art Online: Mother's Rosario has fairly minor explicitly-Christian references, but I thought what was there was surprisingly respectful and a welcome change from the clichéd "secretly evil priest" and similar cartoonish caricatures common to entertainment media. I'm also not entirely certain how much of the Christian imagery used in Death Note goes beneath the surface level, but I was surprised at the foot-washing reference after the rooftop scene; for a largely secular nation that definitely seemed like a deeper reference than the Cross and Nativity imagery usually seen. |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
![]() Posts: 943 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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I talk to a lot of atheists, but none of them take any joy in the death of other people. Maybe there's just a better standard of atheist around here. Or possibly the fact that we don't have any mass shootings, at churches or otherwise, might have something to do with it.
I don't disagree with that, but it still doesn't make them an oppressed minority.
Mostly it seems to be laws permitting discrimination against homosexual and transgender people on religious grounds.
Frankly, if the rest of the world shits on the US, there are some good reasons for it. Now I'm not saying Australia is perfect, or even much better in many respects. Worse in a couple of particular areas, such as treatment of refugees and asylum seekers. And yes, we're only just now "voting" on same-sex marriage (actually a non-compulsory opinion poll that Parliament doesn't have to abide by the results of, being used by elements of our government as a stalling tactic). Do you know why we're even having it to begin with? Because a past Prime Minister changed the legal definition of marriage a couple of decades ago to specify that it's between a man and a woman, which he did because that's the Christian view of marriage. So yes, I am speaking from my own experiences, which are that Christian politicians keep introducing laws to try to enforce Christian standards on everyone.
As does the location listed in my profile, present on all of my posts. Still, even if all those institutions talk about Christianity negatively, it's still a dominant force. Or so it seems from my point of view; at the very least other religions are treated even worse and not as widespread.
Which sounds like Christians are being oppressed here, except by and large what they're losing their jobs and copping flak for is discrimination against homosexual and transgender people. If you think discrimination against them is okay because you think it's just a trendy lefty thing these days, I think that says some unflattering things about your sense of morality.
Here's the thing: they're still being very selective with which Christian beliefs to stick to and stand up for. Leviticus forbids an amazing array of things that modern Christians have no problem with doing or allowing to be done, but it always seems to be men screwing men that can not be tolerated. |
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#876876
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I would like to point out that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly known as Mormonism) has made a presence in Japan since 1901 and then after WWII ended. There are plenty of congregations, a few missions, and currently (as of 2017) THREE temples in the nation: Tokyo (dedicated in 1980), Fukuoka (2000), and Sapporo (2016). Not to mention a few native Japanese as well as Japanese-descended General Authorities in Salt Lake City, Utah.
To tie this in with anime in general, the first opening from Maison Ikkoku "Kanashimi yo Konnichiwa" is sung by Church member Saito Yuki-san whose profile is also on the A.N.N. website. If you're familiar with the Ruby programming language, that was also made by Church member Matsumoto Yukihito; a.k.a. Matz. You can find him (and any other Japanese --as well as non-Japanese-- Church members) on mormon.org by searching their profiles. I also have a book called "Japanese Saints: Mormons in the Land of the Raising Sun" by John P. Hoffmann which discusses the sociological aspect of the Church in Japan. |
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Velshtein
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A religion that is routinely derided and dismissed in a country's news media, pop culture, entertainment industry, academic centers, and is unsuccessful in shaping the culture's morals is not a dominant force in any sense of the word. Again, you're speaking from ignorance.
You're changing the subject. Whether you agree with Christian morality is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that life these days is not a cozy bed for Christians in the U.S..
Again, you're changing the subject, and conveying that not only do you misunderstand the cultural status of Christianity in the U.S. but that you also lack understanding of Christian beliefs. You do not seem qualified to comment on these matters. |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
![]() Posts: 943 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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I wouldn't say it's changing the subject to talk about what some of these Christian beliefs are, if the complaint is that Christians are being treated unfairly for sticking up for their beliefs. But I suppose I just don't understand, ignorant and unqualified to comment on these matters as I apparently am, despite all the church services I'd been made to attend, religious education at school that oddly only taught Christianity, religious family members, etc. Perhaps you could educate me, then. What are some examples of Christians in America being discriminated against for their beliefs that don't involve said Christians trying to impose their religion-based values on someone else? |
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Velshtein
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You're asking a loaded, disingenuous question that precludes answers you don't like. People (Christians included) have the legal right to practice their religious beliefs. If a Christian is "imposing" their values, then everyone is. Welcome to pluralism. Welcome to multiculturalism. Welcome to democracy. If someone feels "imposed" upon, then they can move to another country where they will not have to encounter beliefs that differ from their own. |
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DerekL1963
![]() ![]() Posts: 1119 Location: Puget Sound |
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So, she's asking a very clear and direct question - but one which American Christians won't answer because they can't answer it as no such example exists.
Yes, Christians have a legal right to practice their religious beliefs - nobody ever claimed different. What Christians don't have the right to do is to stomp on other people's right's and freedoms using their religion as justification for doing so. (Which is what "imposing" means and which they routinely attempt to do.) You can't force me to follow your beliefs, and I can't force you to follow mine. This isn't pluralism, this isn't multiculturalism, this isn't democracy - it's the rights guaranteed to all and protected under the Constitution. |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
![]() Posts: 943 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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I think if anyone here's being disingenuous on the subject, it's you. There is a difference between accepting someone else practicing their religion and them forcing you to live by its restrictions. If someone says "I can't drink because of my religion", I say fair enough, he doesn't have to drink. If someone says "my religion (which you don't follow) forbids alcohol, so I can't let you drink", that I have a problem with. But just for the sake of argument then, let's drop that qualifier. What are some examples of Christians in America being discriminated against? |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
![]() Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Christianity is definitely on the decline in the US of A. Anyone who has lived here for a long time has seen the gradual (and sometimes not so gradual) changes in popular culture, in local laws, and in general sentiment among the populous. It's significantly different now than how it was when I was a kid, some 40 years ago. Of course, the US isn't a monolithic sort of country, so in some places it hasn't changed as much as others, but I seriously doubt there is any part of the country that has become *more* sincerely Christian over time -- at best they've only declined slightly. And, yes, even in the South I think that's true.
By and large, the US is *much* more secular now than it once was, and it shows every sign of having that momentum carry on into the future. Whether or not this is a good thing depends on who you talk to, but it seems to me that the country is growing increasingly divided, and that different groups talk to each other (in a genuine way) less and lass as time goes by, and fear, mistrust, and hatred are on the rise. Is this due to the decline of Christian values and beliefs? I'll leave that for people to decide for themselves, but it *is* happening, and IMO the results are alarming. I myself am a Christian, but I would never try to impose my beliefs on anyone. If someone wants to talk to me about my faith, I'll talk to them about it, but I don't go looking for people to convert. People can believe what they want to believe, right or wrong. But they're responsible for those beliefs, and what comes from them. That's what it means to be free, IMO. When it comes to Japan (since this is the actual topic of this thread), I'm glad that they've been exposed to Christian ideas. Whether they decide to take up being a Christian is up to them, just as it is here in the US. I think the social ramifications are probably more... pervasive there than they are here, because unlike what someone said about how Japanese society favors "minding your own business", I disagree. I think it's more "Don't cause trouble" which actually means "Don't stick out or disrupt the flow of those around you." That isn't quite the same thing as minding your own business, because if you do cause trouble and disrupt the flow, the whole society can fall upon you like an avalanche. That can happen in the US as well, but not to the same degree (unless, maybe, if you live in a tightly knit small town). Still, it's a lot better than being a Coptic Christian in certain parts of the Middle-east, where being a Christian can get you killed. |
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Mad_Scientist
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No we're not, and I'm both an American and a Christian, so you're "you must not be a US citizen" nonsense is just that, nonsense.
Handmaid's Tale is based on a over 30 year old book written by a Canadian, it's not some "Hollywood Elite Propaganda" or whatever you think it is.
No they're not speaking from ignorance. Christians are not a persecuted minority in the US. We're make up the majority of the population. There has literally never been a President who wasn't a (supposed at least, I doubt Trump is sincere) Christian. Almost all politicians and people in power are Christians. There's an entire news network and media empire dedicated to catering to a (certain segment at least) of Christians. Certain aspects and segments of Christianity are more openly and commonly criticized now than before, that is true, but we're still far, far away from becoming an oppressed minority. |
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