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CrowLia
Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5528
Location: Mexico
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 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:40 pm
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| Grimvice wrote: |
| Quote: | | Being aimed at men (and whether sports anime are aimed mostly at men in this day an age is highly debatable, considering it was fujoshi who made Kurobas, Yow/apeda and Haikyuu a success) does not excuse having poor writing for its female characters. |
But they're not badly written characters though...
Besides, Shizuku is actually a very small part of the series, the real heroine has not appeared in the series yet, and this upcoming character is definitely much better than Shizuku and is focused on more. |
I guess you could make an argument about her not being a badly written character considering she is hardly written at all, but I don't know if that makes it any better.
It is also irrelevant whether she's the main heroine or not. There are plenty of well-developed girls in shonen anime that aren't the main heroine. She's the main female character we've been introduced to so far and the only one we've seen dancing 1/4 of the show in, yet she is given little to no agency or significant participation in pretty much anything.
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Chrysostomus
Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:28 am
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| CrowLia wrote: | | Other shonen manga give their female characters agency and independent arcs (Hero Academia, FMA, Magi, Blue Exorcist all feature fully-developed female characters with agency). |
Well I think it's funny you mention Magi and Blue Exorcist considering their female leads are pretty weak/forgettable. I mean Magi's female lead basically got shafted early on and has been greatly ignored since the first arcs concluded. She's almost a tertiary character next to Aladdin's and Baba's prominence. The villainess of the series has gotten some good attention though, much more than Morgiana.
| CrowLia wrote: | | I wasn't aware Anime News Network invented feminism. |
It's not that. You see I think most fans would admit that Sengoku is an asshole and that the main girl is very meh. It's just most western anime fans don't wanna talk about that gender crap which seems to dominate everything we hear 24/7. One of the reasons we love anime Is the escapist aspect of it and most people aren't too keen on having their hobby hijacked by some pervasive outside ideology that has little to do with the hobby in itself. The social justice angle has creeped its way into every single form of media known in the West so I strongly believe most anime fans have developed an aversion to it, if only for the sake of enjoying some form of escapism without having to worry about moralizing busybodies.
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Guile
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:31 am
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| Chrysostomus wrote: | | It's just most western anime fans don't wanna talk about that gender crap which seems to dominate everything we hear 24/7. |
I understand what you are saying, but the way you worded it makes it sound as if Japanese fans care about the issue instead. But I agree most people across the globe don't watch male oriented series specifically for American gender ideals. Everything needing to appease everyone is more of an American mindset.
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CrowLia
Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5528
Location: Mexico
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:18 pm
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| Chrysostomus wrote: |
| CrowLia wrote: | | Other shonen manga give their female characters agency and independent arcs (Hero Academia, FMA, Magi, Blue Exorcist all feature fully-developed female characters with agency). |
Well I think it's funny you mention Magi and Blue Exorcist considering their female leads are pretty weak/forgettable. I mean Magi's female lead basically got shafted early on and has been greatly ignored since the first arcs concluded. She's almost a tertiary character next to Aladdin's and Baba's prominence. The villainess of the series has gotten some good attention though, much more than Morgiana.
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The beauty of the comment you quoted is that I never said I was talking specifically about main heroines (as I've been told repeatedly, Shizuku isn't the main heroine). Blue Exorcist has Izumo and Shura, both fully realized characters with complete arcs that exist beyond being passed around like a trophy between increasingly terrible guys that don't respect their decisions. Magi's Morgiana also has her own arc and development even if it was somewhat trunced in the latter half of the series, and there are other women in Magi like Gyokuen or Hakuei that have their own stories and character arcs. So yeah, I guess it's funny that I mention those two shows that actually do have well-written female characters in contrast to Ballroom that just has poor Shizuku constantly neglected by the writers and the men around her.
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Kikimani
Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Posts: 23
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Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:48 pm
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| Chrysostomus wrote: |
| CrowLia wrote: | | I wasn't aware Anime News Network invented feminism. |
It's not that. You see I think most fans would admit that Sengoku is an asshole and that the main girl is very meh. It's just most western anime fans don't wanna talk about that gender crap which seems to dominate everything we hear 24/7. One of the reasons we love anime Is the escapist aspect of it and most people aren't too keen on having their hobby hijacked by some pervasive outside ideology that has little to do with the hobby in itself. The social justice angle has creeped its way into every single form of media known in the West so I strongly believe most anime fans have developed an aversion to it, if only for the sake of enjoying some form of escapism without having to worry about moralizing busybodies. |
When you have shows that feature characters of...different genders...is it really that crazy to view a show through that lens? Some shows lend themselves better to it, certainly. In this case, the show itself that has placed this issue front and centre via a main character who presents ballroom dancing as a kind of battle among men, and engages in very gender specific name-calling. If we are meant to dislike Sengoku and/or find his ideas wrongheaded then the show itself is making a commentary on such sexist attitudes. You may lodge your complaints to the moralising busybodies at IG for inserting such a theme into your escapism.
And then, I guess, we must have them revoke their Japanese identity, as we all know Japanese folks don't care about that kind of thing.
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Stuart Smith
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:54 pm
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| CrowLia wrote: | | Being aimed at men (and whether sports anime are aimed mostly at men in this day an age is highly debatable, considering it was fujoshi who made Kurobas, Yowapeda and Haikyuu a success) does not excuse having poor writing for its female characters. Other shonen manga give their female characters agency and independent arcs (Hero Academia, FMA, Magi, Blue Exorcist all feature fully-developed female characters with agency). Besides, as the OP mentioned, by the sheer nature of the sport being portrayed, it is completely natural to expect that the female party will be given if not equal, at least significant spotlight and development. Yet we're 1/4 through the show and Shizuku's still being treated like a trophy that neither the writers nor the characters respect enough to grant her agency or respect her decisions. |
It may not be unheard of, but it is by no means a requirement or should be expected. If a story is written to appeal to men, it stands that it might alienate some women in the process. Though even in those examples you listed, the females are secondary to the males. Even despite being written by women, the main focus and battles in FMA, Magi, and AnE are fought by men, and battle women like Shura and Morgiana are clearly designed to be pleasing for the male viewers in the process. Sure, I like Winry's development on accepting and forgiving Scar, and Lan Fan had a few kickass moments, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near the level of Al, Ed, Mustang, or Ling in terms of importance or focus.
So in a story like this, where a high school guy would get clingy or jealous over his female partner being 'stolen' or what have you, or being viewed as an object or secondary, it makes sense if it was written with relating to a young male's feelings of desire he might go through.
Of course ANN didn't invent feminism, but it's one of the few anime communities that try to look at anime though a feminist lens. I was merely stating BlueBeast's comment of the 'problematic' nature being overblown stems mainly from this site's tendency to analyze shows like that.
-Stuart Smith
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Chrysostomus
Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:27 am
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| Kikimani wrote: | | When you have shows that feature characters of...different genders...is it really that crazy to view a show through that lens? |
Yes, actually. There are plenty of ways to talk about interactions between people that don't involve 21st century post-modernist gender ideology. People have been doing it for centuries. Do you need to be a Christian to be a moral person? Or can morality be found in other religions and philosophies?
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