Forum - View topicGAME: Persona 5
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EricJ2
 Posts: 4016 |
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The Kanji "question" was even spelled out directly in the game--The Shadows in P4 don't represent the "real" dark side, they represent the repressed self-doubts that people hate about their own self-perception and don't dare let out, which is why they need to be faced down before they can be empowering.
When the gang sees Kanji facing his Shadow, a goofy over-the-top gay anime-cliche', Chie and Yosuke ask straight out: "Eww, is that the 'real' Kanji??" "No, we're just seeing his emotions right now!" ...Any questions? |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 6184 |
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Can't blame them given how Persona 1 and 2 come off looking outdated and archaic in some respects |
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harminia
 Posts: 2027 Location: australia |
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Still important stepping stones of the series seeing as they're where the persona saga began in the first place. Plus, even if they're maybe outdated they're still great games. |
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Shenl742
Posts: 1524 |
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[note I've rewritten this multiple times. So it may feel kind of stitched together. I honestly want to sound clear and compassionate, and not like an ass] I...actually agree with most of what you say here. And you are right that assumptions about sexuality and gender identity can be very problematic. But that's also kind of why I think clarity is important, especially with fictional characters who aren't free to speak or have the complexity of real people. Even if the extent of that clarity is pretty much "I'm still figuring things out". It's..genuinely hard to explain in away that doesn't sound contradictory, in a "We want to be represented!" vs "We think people should be free no labels, no judgment!" kind of way. I think though when we get down to brass tacks, and even with what I said before...I'm genuinely of the mind that the creators of P4 intended for Kanji to be gay, or Naoto to be trans. i honestly think their stories are just about dealing with issues with masculinity and sexism in society. But the creators did use a lot of genuine homoerotic iconography in a way they probably didn't think would resonate with other people. Which is also a whole nother topic in of itself. It creates genuine mixed messages no matter what your intentions are. But at the same time, despite all the deep issues with how they're portrayed, I think Kanji and Naoto end up being net-positive characters, if only for bringing up all these challenges to how we think about video game characters.
Now this is something I hear a lot, and it's something I don't really agree with. Sure Yosuke is a high-schooler and I guess you can argue that how he's portrayed is "realistic". But at the same time Yosuke is a character in a fictional story, constantly put into very unreal situations, so the concept of "realism" is very fungible. And going by the Law of Narrative Causality, I think it's also very unrealistic that he doesn't really go through any kind of character development (not related to his S-Link, which doesn't at all effect his dialogue in main story), and maybe just learn to be nicer to Kanji, or smarten up at all. Yosuke is constantly portrayed as an idiot and in the wrong but...at the end of the day the game just treats it as mere yucks. Maybe he'll get slapped on the head or some other kind of karmic retribution for his idiocy, but I never felt it enough to justify it in the first place. Especially the homophobia which just tends to hang. I mean...he sees Kanji's inner demons literally manifested, something that happened to himself! Honestly, after that all gay-panic jokes should be dropped if you asked me, now that he's seen Kanji soul lade bare. Or maybe all this is just bias because a straight guy asking if he's "safe around me" is something that's actually been said to me. More than once. So if that's realism, than give me either character development or some sweet, sweet escapism. I'm really sorry if all that sounds kind of aggressive. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 6184 |
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True as that may be 3 and 4 have pretty much cause people to forget about it for the most part. |
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Jayhosh
 Posts: 972 Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania |
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Protip: ANN automatically alters the "ess-jay-double u" to "Shonen Jump Weekly," so I'd suggest referring to it in a different way next time as not to unintentionally wind up looking goofy. It's pretty funny at first, but it does make one question what about the expression was so threatening to them that they felt the need to go so far to censor it. 
That's all fine and good (pretty sure no one here was disagreeing with that), just seems unnecessary to allow oneself to be so disappointed with a development they didn't expect. It's similar to being upset because a character you thought was straight the whole time was actually gay. I think most here simply took issue with the reviewer's assumption that the characters were intentionally "coded" the way she interpreted it. I personally don't play video games to graft my own personality, let alone sexuality, onto fictional characters, but I realize there are plenty who feel otherwise. This is the only reviewer I've seen so far who seems relatively disappointing in the plot. Most I've read/watched have praised the story as the best of the series by far. The game looks amazing, regardless. Can't wait to play it when I finally get a PS4 in the coming month after four years of putting it off. Last edited by Jayhosh on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jayhosh
Posts: 972 Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania |
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I suppose people just ignore numerical denotations then? Even casual players are going to assume that if a game's title contains a "3" or "4," it probably has at least two predecessors. It's not that they aren't aware of their existence, they just don't care. |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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It didn't, you're all good. For the record, I kinda don't really care for Yosuke. I don't hate him, but his lack of growing maturity in certain areas including being understanding of the possibility of Kanji being gay or bi did frustrate me to some extent. I feel he also never fully outgrows his tendency to speak without thinking which sometimes leads to people's feelings getting hurt. For me, while I consider 4 to be a masterpiece and 3 to be "merely" excellent, the one element I definitely feel 3 did better was the MC's best friend (and I loved that the Female MC of 3 was still best friends with Junpei, and despite the occasional flirt it was a platonic close friendship between a guy and girl which is always nice in fiction since that's a concept that is just foreign to some people). I'm also approaching this subject having played the game, then watched the anime, and currently replaying the game (this time the Golden version) before 5 comes out, and yeah the anime was far less sensitive about Kanji. Sure, after defeating Kanji's Shadow, Yu tells Kanji to accept himself but before getting to that point there was a lot of uncomfortable "humor" about the subject where pretty much all the team acted insensitive regarding what they were witnessing. In the game, Yosuke is the only one IIRC that behaves this way in the Shadow fight so while I won't excuse his behavior per say it does at least look less bad compared to how the anime handled it (probably its only major flaw as otherwise the anime was a pretty solid adaptation). |
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CatSword
 Posts: 1489 |
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This looks hella fun. I don't know if I want a PS4 or to just get this for PS3 and Breath of the Wild for Wii U though...
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harminia
Posts: 2027 Location: australia |
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Oh well, that's just a shame as IMO they're missing out on the better offerings of the series. |
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NBlaze53
Posts: 27 |
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Subjective. I own all 4 Persona game, while 2 has an amazing soundtrack and the gameplay enjoyable. I feel P3 and P4 are better simply for their character interactions. What I enjoy most about Persona are the social links and learning about all the characters lives. An RPG that focuses only on story always bore me a little and it's why I have trouble getting into Final Fantasy. While I enjoy some characters in P2, I wish I could spend more time with them. I'm also not a fan of the dated dungeon mechanics, but I can respect P1 and P2 for starting the franchise. I just feel the later games improve upon them in most aspects. |
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harminia
Posts: 2027 Location: australia |
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Like I said, IMO. It's true they're outdated but that's to be expected. Persona 3 feels outdated compared to Persona 4 and probably Persona 4 would feel outdated compared to Persona 5. Generally speaking, most sequels of games will improve upon the previous in some ways. I can understand people not wanting to play older games because they may be outdated or so on, but I still feel it's a shame, and I still find it sad when people discuss the Persona series and only ever discuss 3 & 4 (and I guess now 5). I know 3 and 4 are the gateway games for the series, but I'd just personally love people to try the other stuff on offer... Well, like I said, all my opinion. Last edited by harminia on Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Paiprince
 Posts: 593 |
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It's either LGBT debates or waifu wars for P4 these days. Hardly anyone talks about everyone's resident cabbage lover and his spoiler[nihilist beliefs and actions.] Not to say the rest of the characters from that game are lacking, but Adachi really stole the show if you know what I mean.
I've played the Japanese version and I'm confident to say that P5 is the best of both worlds for classic and contemporary fans alike. From mechanics to characters and narrative, it's clear the team were trying to satisfy both camps as best they can. Sure stubborn purists would never change their minds with this, but that's a loss for them since P5 aims to highlight the genre of JRPG into relevancy in the right direction as opposed to something like FFXV which tries too hard to modernize by alienating its core fanbase. |
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belvadeer
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@harminia: You're not alone here. Resident Persona 1 and 2 fan right here, still love them more than 3 and 4. Rented the first game like crazy back in the Blockbuster days, played the hell out of it, then finally bought a copy from a secondhand game store years later. I also purchased the PSP version, which of course shows the game the way it originally was before the Americanizing Atlus did for the PlayStation version. Eternal Punishment was on my to-buy list the minute it got announced in the gaming magazines and I can't begin to tell you how many hours I put into it. I still haven't played Innocent Sin yet, due to having little time for games these days, but I will eventually. Thankfully, I still have my PSP.
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UltScorpion
 Posts: 41 |
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Well, South Park has been delayed to god knows when and Yooka-Laylee is having issues due to some controversy with taking out JonTron. Guess I'll get this first. Though I'm planning to play this on easy since I know how much Atlus LOVES to punish its players. It's what caused me to distance myself from Persona4.
Though I would love it if they did a re-release of Persona4 Golden on PS4. |
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