Forum - View topicWhat's So Gay About Yuri!!! on Ice?
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TurboTaj
Posts: 4 |
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The problem I have with this argument is that it implies anime is only intended for Japanese consumption. Anime is a global phenomena and therefore it opens itself up to critiques from a global perspective. I don't necessarily agree that because we are not Japanese that we cannot state what we want to see or voice our opinions regarding depictions of characters in anime less we be at best culturally insensitive or at worst outwardly racist. I paid to watch these shows so how does that make me any less of a consumer than a Japanese citizen who paid to watch their shows? While I do think we should be sensitive to the fact that these shows are largely created by Japanese people and therefore have a distinct perspective, I don't think we should excuse things we find offensive from a Western perspective or have our voices silenced because we do not make up the majority of the fanbase. It would be different if the shows in question were not aired on Western services like Crunchyroll or receive dubs but these shows are sold to a global audience and therefore it invites global criticism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Last edited by TurboTaj on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24092 |
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I would be really careful about tossing around the word racist even if you qualify it with the adjective "unintentionally." I understand your primary point and in the main I agree with the danger of projecting a Western cultural mindset into anime. In fact, very recently, I've had some discussions here at ANN on that very topic, although not in the context of lgbtq issues. I took the position that Western audiences have to be careful about watching anime, subjecting the material to our particular cultural filter and then pronouncing something "wrong" when it is at odds with our sensibilities. So I'm with you. However, racism is, by defintion, the hatred of another human being or group of human beings based on nothing but race. In the interests of precision, you want to be sure you are using the word correctly. If somebody projects progressive attitudes around representing lgbtq characters in anime and has negative things to say about current anime norms, that may be more of a matter of ethno-centricism or cultural insensitivity as opposed to racism. |
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eliram
Posts: 14 |
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A bit of a nit-pick but, its a little unjust to bring Iron Blooded Orphens into the conversation while ignoring Yamagi, the shows actual gay character.
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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Ah okay, forgot about Franz's romantic interests, he was cool, much more rational than Albert. |
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wolf10
 Posts: 921 |
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Sloppy_Jimbo
 Posts: 98 |
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My best friend is gay and he likes Junjou Romantica just fine. As for me, Aoi Hana is yuri soup for the soul. If Eupho goes cannon, I will cry manly tears. It's not a fetish, it's a lifestyle choice.
Anime has a track record of promising much, but delivering little. I must be a masochist. I'm looking at you LLS! |
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leesahlynn
Posts: 81 |
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Not an anime, but a manga. Hidamari ga Kikoeru by Fumino Yuki. It's light BL (if you can even call it that) and one half of the partnership is hard of hearing. The whole story is really good, exactly what you're looking for, both like girls and their relationship slowly develops because of who they are, not what they are. I really love it 
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24092 |
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Well, to flip your argument around, if a Japanese person watched Hollywood action films and insisted that they were fatally flawed because the leads are always resolute individualists who frequently ignore the norms that advance societal harmony, I'd think that person was a dick. |
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TurboTaj
Posts: 4 |
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I guess we just have different perspectives then. I would think "Okay fine then let's see a movie that talks about that." Having more perspectives and narratives is a good thing IMO so long as it is done respectfully. Whether or not I agree with their argument makes little difference to me so long as the art of what they are making has integrity. To be clear, I'm not advocating that Japan STOPS doing what they are already doing with anime. I'm trying to advocate creating other shows with different perspectives and narratives. EDIT: In addition, say if someone did create a movie to criticize the sharp individualist streak of Hollywood films by no means am I saying that it can't be criticized. But I would still want them to create the film because it offers a different perspective. We can have opinions about what they depict. I just don't like when people say we can't criticize anime simply because we are Western. |
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AnimeLordLuis
 Posts: 1626 Location: The Borderlands of Pandora |
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I don't have a problem with an anime queer-baiting towards straight viewers after all if you don't like it than just don't watch. Also on the subject of subtext fan shipping I believe that if a show goes in this direction everyone wins since they leave it all up to the viewer to decide if character x has romantic feelings for another character of the same gender.
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Stuart Smith
 Posts: 1298 |
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Anyone is free to voice their opinion on a Japanese product, but they shouldn't expect to actually be heard or taken into considered by the production team. A subscription to Crunchyroll, even if we assume 100% of it goes to the specific shows production committee, doesn't even cover half of what a single DVD of an anime costs in Japan, so yes, you are less of a customer compared to the Japanese audience. The industry doesn't live on criticism, it lives on sales. Japanese progressives disagree severely with American progressives, so I really don't think trying to project American progressive mentality on a Japanese product is a very good way to go about it in general. A lot of the arguments and tactics Americans use are shut down by the Japanese side. -Stuart Smith |
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fencer_x
Posts: 279 |
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lmao it's really unfortunate you posted this literally one day before spoiler[Yuuri confessed his love for Victor] sooo  care to walk back that statement?
It's 2016; shows are starting to actually go through with bringing their subtext into actual text. |
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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I read Neko's post as more speaking out toward reading a show as something and claiming that is factually what it is about, regardless of what the actual creators intent was. Or what said actions mean in a totally different culture. Not that our opinions and perceptions of anime don't matter. Of course they do and we are all welcome to share them, hopefully. But saying, THIS is what a show is about, might not be necessarily accurate. And might be predicated on our own understanding of the topic, what we want to see, and our own interests. |
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TurboTaj
Posts: 4 |
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I kindly disagree. A Crunchyroll subscription was just an example but if I purchase a DVD sale then my sale is just as valuable as a Japanese sale if they are the same price. I WOULD accept the argument that we are a smaller proportion of the anime fanbase so our concerns are not as immediate of an issue as the concerns of the Japanese population. However, that being said our concerns do not deserve to be ignored or dismissed. I also find it strange that people are advocating that we not view anime through an American mentality. If we are American, that is how we intrinsically view things. We can explain away some of our concerns when we try to be sensitive to the Japanese perspective but it isn't honest or realistic to say that we shouldn't view anime through an American perspective when we are Americans. You can't change your own implicit biases by saying "Stop having them." For example, it wasn't that uncommon to see Japanese entertainment use blackface. We can try to be sympathetic to the Japanese with how they think it is acceptable, but at the end of the day we as Americans have the right to say "This is offensive and not the kind of entertainment I want to see." It is then our decision if we decide not to support the show and tell our friends to stop watching. Then it is up to the show-runners if they want to listen to this feedback to help grow the audience or if they don't want to listen and keep a narrower audience and risk spreading negative feedback which will shrink the audience more.
Well that I agree on. My general point is when we examine the general trends as a whole and say, "Hey, this isn't really a path we are looking to go down. We'd much rather see these kinds of characters..." Hence the original article pointing out the various categories of LGBT representation in anime and discussion how some are problematic. On its own, it isn't an issue but as an aggregate it is. We can explain away why those representations exist when taking in the Japanese perspective but my point is that we Westerners should still be able to express how we want to see characters in anime progress. |
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LilacSkyAtDawn
Posts: 10 |
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Very, very well said. I applaud you, @Neko-sensei on this wonderfully analytical comment; for once I'm glad I browsed through the forum. Maybe it's because I'm not American (or even from the western hemisphere), but I've always found discussions of anime and manga (less so manga, because the more well-read manga fans are somewhat more aware of Japanese ways than anime-only fans) among English-speaking fandoms very alienating. My own culture is almost a half-half mixture of western and eastern because of my country's geographical location, and because of that I have the ability to see things more objectively than someone who's exclusively on either side. I've often wanted to write something that explained how inappropriate it is to superimpose western cultural notions on an eastern society (especially a culturally isolated one like Japan's), but lacked the motivation and the cultural background (I've never lived in Japan, only visited) to do so. Thank you for writing! There's nothing wrong with individual people saying: "I want to see this kind of thing happening in the show," or "I demand to see this pairing." But imo when you're a person who writes reviews/articles that a lot of people will read and be influenced by, then you have more of a responsibility to research the culture from which the work originated before writing about it. And I've often seen people saying "they should also think of the western fans before they make their anime/manga!" If that's the case, then do the poeple who make western TV series think about other non-western countries (who consume their media way, way more than they consume Japanese media anyway) when they make TV shows? I don't think so. (But if I'm wrong about that and they actually do, feel free to correct me) And as for the article itself: I highly doubt Yuuri on Ice is as representative of the LGBT community as the reviewer makes it seem. It's obviously one of their personal favourites, and that's fine, but frankly it's no less blatantly BL-fanservice-laden than any other anime with a predominantly male cast. I don't agree with most of the recommendations, either. The Antique Bakery guy absolutely fulfilled the 'gay sexual predator' stereotype, Doukyuusei is hardly different from any other BL (only difference being that there was no sexual assault of any kind), Shouwa Genroku and Gankutsuou had no canonically homosexual characters in major roles, they never said anything about the MC's from No. 6 being gay (at least they didn't in the original novel, which has vastly superior storytelling to the anime) and Simoun is a cop-out because there are no boys in that world anyway. I'm personally not fond of romance, so I always seek out this kind of story (ie: non-BL with mostly male characters and non-GL with mostly female characters) because the likelihood of a prominent pairing that takes over all the character interaction and development is low-to-nil. That doesn't mean I'll deny any actual pairing that exists, obviously: just that not everyone watches shows like Yuuri, Free, Madoka and Izetta to oggle the hot guys/girl and ship them with each other. |
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