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Garuniks
Joined: 18 Sep 2016
Posts: 5
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:31 pm
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Quote: | it's clear that Watari is interested in reproducing a cast of familiar people most of us knew in high school without resorting to typical anime tropes and types. |
No, sir, it's clear you understand squat of what Watari was trying to do.
Quote: | Miura's boyfriend Hayato |
I'll give a pass if that's how the translation presents them, otherwise... hnnngh
Quote: | The biggest issue is that it's often difficult to tell who is talking, which in all fairness might be due to the translation, as English only has one word for “I” while Japanese has several, making tags less necessary to identify speakers. |
Ok, it's a bad translaton. Seriously, I could accept fan translations not trying hard for stuff like these (indeed I have found myself many times trying to figure out who said what, though it's ok), but official translations need to take everything into account and actually do a responsible job.
Quote: | The biggest problem for some readers may be the way Hachiman refers to Miura and Yui, who both roll their skirts and unbutton their blouses a bit, as “sluts.” That's a very loaded word, and while it may be a realistic thing that someone like Hachiman might think, it also adds an air of meanness that the character otherwise lacks; it would have been better if a different word had been used in the translation. |
I think that's a problem only for you. I find it difficult to imagine a reader having an issue with how a character decides to call other characters in a story. That's just reaching at straws.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2265
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:10 am
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Garuniks wrote: |
I think that's a problem only for you. I find it difficult to imagine a reader having an issue with how a character decides to call other characters in a story. That's just reaching at straws. |
Nope, that's actually an issue for me as well. At least in the anime, where the subs used "bitches", it comes off to a Western viewer as Hachiman trying to act superior. But insinuating that the girls who follow fashion norms that are pretty bog-standard in anime and manga are somehow "sluts" just paints Hachiman as excessively mean and petty. My reaction changes from "Yeah, yeah, you've got an inferiority complex" to "Dude, WTF?"
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Garuniks
Joined: 18 Sep 2016
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:35 am
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whiskeyii wrote: |
Garuniks wrote: |
I think that's a problem only for you. I find it difficult to imagine a reader having an issue with how a character decides to call other characters in a story. That's just reaching at straws. |
Nope, that's actually an issue for me as well. At least in the anime, where the subs used "bitches", it comes off to a Western viewer as Hachiman trying to act superior. But insinuating that the girls who follow fashion norms that are pretty bog-standard in anime and manga are somehow "sluts" just paints Hachiman as excessively mean and petty. My reaction changes from "Yeah, yeah, you've got an inferiority complex" to "Dude, WTF?" |
That depends on which subs you use. Commie used the word "slut" as well. I felt the same way at the time, but it didn't matter. The point is, that Hachiman is supposed to look petty and mean. That's exactly what he is at this stage of the story. That's how he thinks.
And FYI, the fan translation used both "slut" and "bitch" at different situations, which leads me to believe that the original also uses "slut" or some Japanese word of the same connotation, in which case the translator has his hands tied.
One thing's for sure, though. No one is going to care or remember that the main character used a word or two, once they reach the later volumes, and it is most definitely not the reason which is going to deter them from continuing, so it's a non-issue, and thus reaching at straws.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2265
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:16 am
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Garuniks wrote: |
One thing's for sure, though. No one is going to care or remember that the main character used a word or two, once they reach the later volumes, and it is most definitely not the reason which is going to deter them from continuing, so it's a non-issue, and thus reaching at straws. |
Unless Hachiman's attitude is enough to dissuade newcomers or folks who don't like being in the same headspace as him (a problem the anime avoids by sheer difference of medium) from continuing past the first volume, which I think is the point Rebecca was trying to make.
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2632
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:24 am
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whiskyii wrote: | Unless Hachiman's attitude is enough to dissuade newcomers or folks who don't like being in the same headspace as him (a problem the anime avoids by sheer difference of medium) from continuing past the first volume, which I think is the point Rebecca was trying to make. |
It is the point I was going for. Also as a female reader, it can be very off-putting in general, no matter if it goes away later.
Garuniks wrote: | No, sir, it's clear you understand squat of what Watari was trying to do. |
I'm a "ma'am," not a "sir." And that was the conclusion I arrived at after reading his afterward, where he discusses what motivated him.
As for the boyfriend/girlfriend thing, maybe that was the YenOn translation - and I'd be interested to have people come back to this when the book is actually released - but, that was the impression Hachiman's words gave. They could very well be single, but in the novel, as narrated by Hachiman, he implied that they were dating. (I've not seen the anime, as a point of reference.)
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Alan45
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Village Elder
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9928
Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:50 am
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I haven't seen the book yet, the post office claims it will be delivered this afternoon, but watching the anime gave me a strong sense of deja vu. His general attitude about high school and his classmates mirrors mine. The main difference is that he voiced insights that I didn't arrive at until a couple of years later when I was able to see the situation from the outside.
I wouldn't call Hachiman cynical so much as realistic for a person in his situation. Unlike him I kept trying but I might as well have saved myself the effort. Fortunately I had books to fall back on.
A couple of years ago, I received notice of a class reunion. Looking at the yearbook, I realized that I could no longer attach personalities to the people, they might as well have been strangers. I also could not remember a single enjoyable event. I wasn't continuously miserable in school but I don't remember ever being happy either. I didn't go to the reunion.
I can't comment on his characterization of girls in his class as there was a different dynamic back then.
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Garuniks
Joined: 18 Sep 2016
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:39 am
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Princess_Irene wrote: |
whiskyii wrote: | Unless Hachiman's attitude is enough to dissuade newcomers or folks who don't like being in the same headspace as him (a problem the anime avoids by sheer difference of medium) from continuing past the first volume, which I think is the point Rebecca was trying to make. |
It is the point I was going for. Also as a female reader, it can be very off-putting in general, no matter if it goes away later. |
The problem is that a single word doesn't suddenly define a character's headspace. As I said, if a reader decides they don't like the book, it's not going to be because a character used the word "slut" instead of "bitch", but because the character's general disposition doesn't sit well with them, among other reasons. It just cannot have a reasonable weight into a reader's decision.
Princess_Irene wrote: |
Garuniks wrote: | No, sir, it's clear you understand squat of what Watari was trying to do. |
I'm a "ma'am," not a "sir." ![Smile](/bbs/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) And that was the conclusion I arrived at after reading his afterward, where he discusses what motivated him. |
I didn't know, I apologize. You need to follow the series further in order to realize what the general intention is: taking tropes and stereotypes and subsequently turning them on their head, by giving them unique desires and motivations, thus deviating them from the norm of the average otaku culture. In other words, the opposite of what you referred.
Princess_Irene wrote: | As for the boyfriend/girlfriend thing, maybe that was the YenOn translation - and I'd be interested to have people come back to this when the book is actually released - but, that was the impression Hachiman's words gave. They could very well be single, but in the novel, as narrated by Hachiman, he implied that they were dating. (I've not seen the anime, as a point of reference.) |
Maybe that's the impression the volume gives when first read, especially considering it's Hachiman narrating (due to him being generally clueless to his surroundings because of looking from outside-in), but upon closer inspection, and further down the line, it becomes clear that they are not together.
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Alan45
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Village Elder
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:48 am
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@Garuniks
This review is made based on the first volume of the series. You really should not be arguing with people based on information to come out in later volumes. It is not fair to those of us who wait for a legal translation.
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kardonius
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 6
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:12 pm
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whiskeyii wrote: |
Garuniks wrote: |
I think that's a problem only for you. I find it difficult to imagine a reader having an issue with how a character decides to call other characters in a story. That's just reaching at straws. |
Nope, that's actually an issue for me as well. At least in the anime, where the subs used "bitches", it comes off to a Western viewer as Hachiman trying to act superior. But insinuating that the girls who follow fashion norms that are pretty bog-standard in anime and manga are somehow "sluts" just paints Hachiman as excessively mean and petty. My reaction changes from "Yeah, yeah, you've got an inferiority complex" to "Dude, WTF?" |
That's really just the anime subs being slightly less accurate in word choice. He uses ビッチ(bicchi) which is obviously the Japanese use of the English word bitch. However, the connotation of the word in Japanese isn't the same as that in English. In English it's usually more a mean, annoying, or otherwise unpleasant woman. In Japanese it has more of a sexual connotation of a promiscuous, or 'easy' woman so "slut" is really the word that more accurately carries the intended meaning.
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Garuniks
Joined: 18 Sep 2016
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:48 pm
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Alan45 wrote: |
@Garuniks
This review is made based on the first volume of the series. You really should not be arguing with people based on information to come out in later volumes. It is not fair to those of us who wait for a legal translation. |
I don't know what gave the impression that I was arguing. I merely stated facts and explained myself why I thought certain points in the review were not correct. And I certainly did not give out spoilers, so I'm not sure why you'd feel hard-done by. Furthermore, every information I gave was well within the boundaries of the first volume (as in, they can be inferred by reading just volume 1).
kardonius wrote: | That's really just the anime subs being slightly less accurate in word choice. He uses ビッチ(bicchi) which is obviously the Japanese use of the English word bitch. However, the connotation of the word in Japanese isn't the same as that in English. In English it's usually more a mean, annoying, or otherwise unpleasant woman. In Japanese it has more of a sexual connotation of a promiscuous, or 'easy' woman so "slut" is really the word that more accurately carries the intended meaning. |
That's also a point I considered, but since I am not a Japanese-speaker, I couldn't confirm.
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Alan45
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-silver.png) Village Elder
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9928
Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:28 pm
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Garuniks wrote:
Quote: | it's clear you understand squat of what Watari was trying to do. |
That is not a statement of facts, that is an argument.
Quote: | You need to follow the series further in order to realize what the general intention is: |
Quote: | No one is going to care or remember that the main character used a word or two, once they reach the later volumes |
This is what I meant by information from later volumes. I didn't say you used spoilers. What you did is disagree with the review and used information you said was from later volumes to support your argument. Given that neither the reviewer or most of the people reading the review have legal access to this it comes across as very smugly superior. At best your comment is pointless and at worst rude.
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Garuniks
Joined: 18 Sep 2016
Posts: 5
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:17 pm
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Alan45 wrote: |
Garuniks wrote:
Quote: | it's clear you understand squat of what Watari was trying to do. |
That is not a statement of facts, that is an argument. |
No, this is an argument, and it's pretty useless at that, so I refuse to further it.
Alan45 wrote: |
Quote: | You need to follow the series further in order to realize what the general intention is: |
Quote: | No one is going to care or remember that the main character used a word or two, once they reach the later volumes |
This is what I meant by information from later volumes. I didn't say you used spoilers. What you did is disagree with the review and used information you said was from later volumes to support your argument. Given that neither the reviewer or most of the people reading the review have legal access to this it comes across as very smugly superior. At best your comment is pointless and at worst rude. |
As I said, this is information that is available in the first volume. The problem is that the reader might be incapable of comprehending this information with the first read, as it takes a few more to properly analyze it.
When I say "You need to follow the series further", I specifically mean you who did not understand it with the first volume (if I come off as disrespectful, it is not my intention), and need further information, even though that information is already in the first volume. I did not give information from the next volumes, I merely stated that further reading will be needed for this to come to light for you who did not get it. (and when I say "you", I don't mean anyone in particular, just so we're clear)
This is also the case for which I said that I "explained myself", because I realize that "you don't understand squat" doesn't really cut it. I could come up with examples from the first volume, but it needs researching, and frankly, I don't feel it is worth my time just to prove it, so I took a shortcut.
However, an easy example I can come up with without researching is Totsuka. Totsuka, for all intents and purposes, is a trap character. The difference is that this trap character actually wants to become better at tennis and trains very hard to achieve that goal, which is a major deviation from the stereotypical trap character who servers only to make the make the main character feel confused, only to realize that it was actually a girl all along.
When I say "no one is going to remember...", I do not use information from later volumes, it is common logic. It happens to everyone with any given series or book. Even if you feel a little strange about something at the beginning, once you reach the middle, you either don't care anymore, or somehow come to understand why it was such.
Also, whether my comment is pointless or not, will be decided by whether someone reads it and changes the impression that the original review gave them or not.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:02 pm
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@Garuniks
My point, which I may not have expressed clearly is that discussion of the first volume of a series should contain no references to subsequent volumes. None At All. A book like this needs to stand on its own. If it fails to explain some aspect of the story or leaves a false impression so be it.
In so many of these threads we get the "it gets better (or worse)" or "you will be surprised". This stuff gets really tiring. If impressions given by the book have multiple interpretations that will be later clarified please let us wait until we get there. You had your turn at reading the series and enjoying it, let us have ours.
I said rude, because you are potentially spoiling the book for others, I said pointless because others reading this do not have your access and cannot disagree with your contentions, which are not necessarily correct.
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Silver4000
Joined: 07 Aug 2015
Posts: 181
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:38 am
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I am assuming that everyone here has seen the anime, so I'm really thinking that all the heat about bitch/slut is pretty dumb, but since nowadays America is quite sensitive to everything...
There is a reason for Hachiman's judgement, as it is possible to interpret, or rather, it should be obvious by reading the novel. First he's a loner, so as a loner he tends to observe others at interprete the way they act, dress, and talk as their personalities. So Miura, who is the queen of the class, and she's after the popular boy Hayato, which makes every other female back off (if she's nearby), and Yui who is her friend (or seems to be) are dressed in a more revealing way, it's only reasonable that a person like Hachiman would reach to that conclusion by watching that background. After all, he has become very judgmental of people because they were judgmental of him in the first place (and they still are throughout the series).
I mean, like any of us here are saints, we all judged someone by the way they act, talk, dress, or even by the replies we have read here (hell, I judged all of you as americans based on the problems issued with the "sexism" part).
So I think it really isn't that much of a problem the way he categorized them, since the reasoning is simple. Do we all have to agree with the way he called them? No. But do we have to judge him and the series all of a sudden because of that? Don't think so. After all the story isn't about a guy living a happy school life.
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Gregori Mieses
Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 1
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:07 pm
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I finish reading the novel and i enjoy it, well in bias because i feel the pain that hachiman was feeling during middle school girls looking you like garbage, and i have the same look on life but a little tone down. i enjoy it why? i think it was smart the references like the "medabots" one was really amazing. some mistakes in translation
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