Forum - View topicNEWS: 2nd Japanese TV Station Removes Nymphet from Schedule
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ultrapostman
Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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Damn, another loli debate and I'm late to the party!
That was funny enough reading it, but I would probably collapse with laughter if I actually heard someone say that.
I don't want to cause another debate, but I think that Satanism is objectively wrong. My opinions are so inflammatory. Ok now I'm serious again.
Well, I don't know who Ruri and Sasami are, but I'm well aware of the disturbing levels of Rei doujinshi. It's basically a pornographic genre of its own. But do you think that Anno really intended for Rei to become a fanboy's wet dream? He didn't intend for Rei to become a sex object, but that's the way some people interpreted it. Thus I come to the point: while Knj obviously has sexual innuendo both blatant and implied, is it really meant to arouse the viewer? Zac, you're obviously offended by the material, but can't you at least admit the possibility that the creator only intended it as absurdist humor? It's not her fault (manga author's a woman) if pedophiles are aroused by Rin, just like it's not Anno's fault if fanboys are aroused by Rei. Creators can't be held responsible for unintended side effects of their material, and neither can the material for that matter. Take the Bible for example. If you're a Catholic, then you know that Jesus Christ intended the New Testament (well, his teachings that is, since he didn't write the New Testament we know) to spread his message of salvation through God. Is it his fault that religious zealots read the Bible and decided the best way to honor God was to massacre nonbelievers? Of course not, but that's the way some people interpreted it (and still do unfortunately). I guess my point here is that you shoudn't really call Knj lolicon or pornographic unless you can prove that it's meant to be that way. Believe it or not Zac, but some people (myself included) were amused by it, not aroused. The material is edgy (for americans at least), but in the end it just depends on your sense of humor. |
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Talon87
Posts: 89 |
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Then I realized that, if you'll permit it, fanfics, H-doujinshi, etc. are fair game. And in that case, I'd have to answer yes. As another poster has just made clear, we've seen Western lolikons ("child sexualizers," to use your preference?) producing their own fanart and putting it up on DeviantArt, 4chan, etc. for years now. There has also been (for as long as I can remember) fanfics that involve children -- I guess my first exposure to this would be Pokemon fanfics from 1999. Of course, it's all fun and games when it's lovesick teens writing and sharing the fanfics, but it doesn't take much to realize that this sort of stuff probably has been and will continue to be enjoyed by "the not so target audience" of 20+ adults. Then you consider how many of those 20+ adults are behind all the Harry Potter fanfiction and whatnot and, yeah. It all boils down to how lenient you are with this question. If you meant "television only," then sure, I think I'm going to have pass on the challenge of spending the next 3 hours of my life doing research on television in 500 nations as it relates to child sexualization. But if you simply meant stories which depict children in a cutesy-wootsy or "coy" manner, as has been said of KnJ's main character, then I'd say there are tomes upon tomes of the stuff in English and Chinese to compliment the Japanese equivalent. I said it in my first post in this thread -- Japan really isn't that different from any other country. Somebody took issue with it and went off on a "pre-WW2 post-WW2 oh those Americans and their Americanization of the Land of the Rising Sun" schpiel, but my point wasn't to upset any diehard otaku; it was just that we humans are more alike than we like to think we are, and while certain countries may push the envelope one way or another, we all have certain thresholds. Otherwise there wouldn't be such things as the United Nations, the Geneva Convention, etc. My point? Child sexualization/Lolikon may be a hot topic in Japan, but you'll find some form of the debate in almost any country. |
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Talon87
Posts: 89 |
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a) supports the lolikons, or b) regrets that lolikons are enjoying her product but will continue to make it for the non-lolikons who are also enjoying it I really, really, really doubt it's B.
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Craeyst Raygal
Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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Postman:
Ruri Hoshino is from Martian Successor Nadesico http://digilander.libero.it/abbamiau/Tutorial1/00.jpg Sasami Jurai is from Tenchi Muyo! http://www.thecabbitcorner.com/gallery/sasami/sasami_cook1.jpg |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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Talon87:
Well on the minor point: child-sexualization/'lolicon' are descriptive terms to a type of work, if 'lolikons' is used as a noun to intone individual 'fans' (shudder) one of the various pedo offshoots (pedorast/pedophilic) would be my choice of 'Non BS label' over the awkward twist of 'child sexualizers'. But to the meat of your reply, I think you may have missed the gist of an important part- "Can anyone here who enjoys the 'Nymphette' style of child-sexualization [....] point to any other country on earth besides Japan that produces commercial material in such a light?" Without question there are small, fervent fringes which enjoy sexually themed pre-pubescent material in any country. My question was what country commercially, not fan based, releases material similar to Japan; and that point was to address the remarks in thread that drifted in the direction of 'Well, if it's a regular show in Japan, it must be fine and people are overreacting to child-sex content'. My point is to illustrate that Japan is probably the worse place on earth to look to see if something is sexually socially acceptable, largely owing to the fact it's had a culturally driven 'let's ignore the fringes' theme that runs/ran much deeper than other countries, for a variety of reasons thats a little involved to get into here. To whit, Japan has also grown some rather pervasive social/youth problems, and Japanese society at large is starting to come down on the fringes, be it pedo themed material (which is not acceptable in general Japanese society) or even certain 'Otaku' styled alienation/violence material. |
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ultrapostman
Posts: 164 Location: New Jersey. Don't you just love traffic circles? |
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How do you know that KNJ is a hit in the lolicon community? It's not pornographic at all, and I think pedophiles would be more likely to jerk off to something where the kids actually have sex. Not to mention that you left out some options for the author: c) She writes manga for a living and doesn't want to just drop a series that is obviously selling (and you can't say "selling to the loli fans" cause there's no proof that they're the principal market) d) The Japanese aren't making as big a deal over this as we are, and the author isn't really bothered Before you attack "d" and say "why was the show removed then?" remember that KNJ wouldn't have lasted even a single episode in the U.S. The fact that an anime was even produced at all shows that the Japanese are more tolerant of this than we are.
Bringing up Dead or Alive? That's totally not fair; DOA's appeal is obvious to anyone (don't even try and dispute this; play DOA Beach Volleyball if you doubt it), but KNJ's loli appeal is purely opinion based. You can't prove that it's intended to arouse people insead just making them laugh due to the ridiculous nature of it.
That first sentence really got me. You don't understand my position do you? Let me explain: I said that we can't know if KNJ is meant to be pornographic or not, so there's no basis for assumption one way or the other. Tripping over my own arguements? This entire debate is built on smoke, how can I trip over that? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Or, you know, someone could actually just look at the material and see the incredibly obvious over-the-top sexuality of it, see how obviously the little girls are offered up as sex objects, see how tastelessly the material is presented and how completely exploitative the entire work is and make a judgment call based on that. But no, you're right! This is just a totally innocent comedy! |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Who has called it "innocent"? I don't remember hearing that.
Adult Swim is also comedy for mature audiences. I haven't watched it much in quite a while, but the other day I flipped it on to find an episode of Metalocalypse that focused around killing a whole prison full of inmates in the most "awesomely metal" way possible. It ended with an escaped Hannibal Lector-type putting on a bib and preparing to eat a baby. If you look at _that_ from the stereotypical Tipper Gore perspective, it seems incriminating too. "That's not comedy, it's glorifying murder! _Anyone_ can see that!" Right? I saw no punchline there, but I know I have my own taste in comedy. A friend of mine thinks it is hilarious. And it's cable and it's late night. I don't watch and that satisfies me. I think Kojika is in similar circumstances, and I think it seems worse to us because we _do_ have slightly different values and sensitivities in our culture and pedophilia is one of them. Someone from another culture more sensitive violence would be quick to point to us, and probably be shocked and disgusted that we'd be entertained by mass execution by mass execution and cannibalism. (I'd like to mention that scene was very high-suspense and went nearly to the point of the man taking a first bite.) Last edited by Case on Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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britannicamoore
Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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I like how you did that. I wonder what came before? Or maybe after. Is that any worse than a hundred year old vampire sitting in a bathtub licking blood of a ten year old boy as he says :Oh master it hurts. And then her laughing as his junk shrinks? Be honest. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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That's what the insinuation is in the "Kodomo no Jikan does not and was not designed to appeal to lolicons, the material is completely benign and is not supposed to titillate" argument. And no, not everyone who has a problem with this is Tipper Gore and you are not a righteous punk rock free speech freedom fighter for constantly arguing in favor of it. As for your Metalocalypse comments, basically that boils down to "violence? not funny! 8-year old begging to fellate her teacher! HILARIOUS!". I daresay yes, that's a troubling mindset to have.
What in the world are you talking about? Also welcome back to the thread, "if you have a problem with this then you have to have a problem with everything ever made" argument, I missed you |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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That's overextending and overgeneralizing. And I don't think anyone has actually said that either, at least not in this thread. Just because it has sexual humor doesn't mean it's for pedophiles. Just because Metalocalypse shows a man eating babies doesn't mean it's for cannibals. There is room inbetween if you try to see it. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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Case:
Since it seems that the current dominant theme of the pedo-collective is that 'the US is just uptight', I'll reiterate: can anyone else point to a culture outside of Japan that's (commercially) swinging to the pre-puberty sexy groove? (Hey, pedophilia is a cultural sensitivity now!) I'll also play broken record, and rebut to this point that general Japanese society isn't delighted with pedo content, it's that 'Otaku's' are treated about a step up from some bizarre zoo animal, with the major difference being they are flush with yen. And because Japan plays 'hear-no-evil/see-no-evil' with fringe elements in their society, some pretty wacky stuff gets greenlit, as long as Yen is to be pulled from 'Otaku' clutches. You can't draw general conclusions about socially acceptable material from 'Otaku' content, and even in Japan this looks to have crossed a line.
That's the second place finisher: 'Even though it's a by-the-number copy of innumerable 'Weekly Young Jump' ecchi formulas, complete with (grade-school) panty splash panels, it's by no means meant to be titillating.' Hey, the 'Kisaku' series isn't really a rape fantasy either, it's actually a challenging portrayal of the vulnerability of Co-eds and the modern frustrations of sanitation engineers. (No, I'm not saying 'Kodomo no Jikan' is porn, I'm pointing to the absurdity of questioning whether something that's blatantly a sex/humor ecchi is 'meant' to be that way) In general, if you find yourself enjoying something thats considered pretty taboo by 99% of the earths population, why not just chalk that up under the 'I'll just enjoy this on the QT' category. Defending pedo themed material seems like an instant no winner, whats the big rallying point here for pedo fans? |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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I think the rallying point here, is that Nymphet is not pedophilia. And I think referring to people backing the show as a "pedo-collective" is not a constructive way to seek the truth here. I am arguing the matter because I think an exaggerated fear of pedophilia has taken root in this little web community's norms. I believe that reviewers and many users are quick to demonize various moe or bishojo anime as lolicon, (I am thinking back to the Strawberry Mashmallow review that called that show "pedo-licious") and through that lens people are now excusing and encouraging censorship. And given the connection that Wikipedia article on Kojika draws between ANN and the cancellation of the Nymphet manga, I think this is something that deserves to be taken seriously rather than ignored. Ideally I would like to show that people's pedophilic concerns are largely exaggerated and unfounded in most cases, as I think they are with Nymphet... But when people are willing to stand up and label common ethical frameworks as "objectively wrong," I feel strongly that it's just wasted effort... (OTOH just speaking up about a difference of opinion shows lurkers and casual readers that all are not unified in opinion...) Last edited by Case on Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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This is where I'm still skeptical though. Without a doubt thats just dripping with sexual innuendo and suggestivity. However if it truely is meant to be comedic, wouldn't that be the point? To make it as outrageously sexual as possible? Its definitely not innocent (meaning not suggestive) but just becuase its suggestive doesn't mean its for titilation. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Say like someone drew a manga where a really racist white guy went around murdering black people. Say like the violence was usually pretty explicit, although not obscene. Say like it was all played for laughs, and there was someone in the manga who blushed at each murder and said "Oh, you really shouldn't be doing that, Violent Racist-kun!". Saying "it's for laughs" does not deny the presentation of the material and the obvious themes inherent in the work, nor does it deny how trashy and exploitative the presentation is. Kodomo no Jikan follows the basic tenets of every ecchi manga out there - there's a buildup, and then a big splash page ecchi drawing (usually more than one), then a sort of half-hearted condemnation of the previous actions, then we move on. I mean, in the screenshots of that OVA episode (incidentally sold and marketed as "TOO HOT FOR TV!!"), there are shots where "milk" is spilled all over the 8-year old girl with gigantic breasts and then hangs on her in the way milk never does: in big, thick white ropes. This is not situational comedy, even - it's just something that happens in the episode, like any other fanservice comedy where the "hilarious joke" is that a guy accidentally falls on a girl and winds up with his face between her breasts. It's get it guys? it looks like someone just blasted this 8-year old in the face like a Jackson Pollock!. I don't get how you can defend that as just being oh-so-hilarious comedy when the intent is obvious. Furthermore, what kind of sick f*cker really thinks an 8-year old simulating a money shot is comedy gold? Last edited by Zac on Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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