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JaggedAuthor
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 981
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:29 am
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whiskeyii wrote: | Oh, one thing, though. Professor Tomoe and the Witches 5 are actually pretty different in Classic as well, and your mileage may vary on whether you find them hilariously ridiculous or just kind of grating and annoying. It's very Ikuhara, if you've ever seen his particular brand of comedy. |
The darkly comedic portrayal of Professor Tomoe was one of my favorite things about the S season. Here, he's essentially a by-the-books mad scientist figure with no discerning character traits. I also liked how the '90s series made him more sympathetic, whereas Takeuchi's version was basically pure evil from the get-go.
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PumpkinMouse
Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Posts: 82
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:36 am
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CrowLia wrote: |
Sailor Moon's great epiphany about trusting herself once again felt shallow to me because her sudden sinking into despair/darkness/loneliness was just so randomly placed and made no sense. Also, having the scene take place mere seconds after Haruka gives her the "answer" made it feel quite rushed, and lacking in any emotional investment. I understand that it's important that the magical girl trusts herself, the whole thing seems just like hammering in the whole "Sailor Moon is flawless and perfect and everybody loves her and she can do no wrong" which is just... ugh. This part made me recall the episode in Card Captor Sakura in which she faces the Dark card and must struggle to find the Light that resides within her. The latter is a much more effective example of the hero learning to believe in her own powers and using that strength to save everyone. |
Interestingly, I was thinking about Princess Tutu's epiphany scene when I wrote up my issues with the elevator scene. Having other shows with similar scenes that you can look back on and compare to Crystal really just demonstrates how the magical girl genre has changed since Sailor Moon, and it's unfortunate that Crystal has to tie itself so firmly to the manga in places where it could potentially improve itself (though I don't necessarily trust this team to handle that, given their past track record with 'improvements').
CrowLia wrote: |
Something that has bothered me endlessly since the second season is the fact that the Silver Millenium has these Outer guardians that are, for all intents and purposes, exiled and condemned to eternal solitude, and once again, no one questions this. I mean, we can all agree that sending your loyal warriors to the confines of the universe with no means of communication and nothing to do but occassionally fend off threats is a really shitty thing to do. Honestly, the fact that none of these Senshis who for all we know have been literally alone for centuries (or millenia?!) don't resent the queen that sent them in such a thankless, joyless mission is rather unbelievable (I know, plot convenience, Sailor Moon is a flawless perfect queen and everyone loves her and will do anything for her, but it's terrible writing). For crying out loud, at least the men of the Night's Watch have their brothers in arms to keep each other company and do occassionally get to slack off and have fun. |
So this is a bit of a strange point in Sailor Moon canon, because Naoko later retcons it in the Dream Arc by saying that every Senshi was a princess of her respective planet and lived in her own castle during the Silver Millennium. Whether those castles or planets were actually populated is up for debate.
There are plenty of fanfics that take the idea of the Outers living truly solitary lives and either play up the tragedy or find a way to explain why they'd love a princess so many light-years away, but there are just as many fanfics that have the Outers ruling over their respective kingdoms like, well, normal monarchs, with servants and courts and all the rest.
The whole princess angle can really mess with the previous canon of the Outers, especially Pluto and Saturn, but it comes down to picking and choosing your canon in the end.
(EDITED: I put some things in spoiler tags just in case there are Sailor Moon manga newbies reading the thread who don't want to be spoiled. The spoiler-free version is that Naoko wrote some things in the Dream Arc that can contradict what we know about the Outers so far, depending on how you interpret her words.)
@ Sailor Sedna:
Just want to mention that I agree that Usagi being a clumsy girl in the 90s version doesn't change the fact that she was a very kind-hearted girl who could competently save the world when she needed to.
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SailorNaruto
Joined: 16 Mar 2016
Posts: 195
Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:23 am
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CrowLia wrote: | Another climactic moment that fell completely flat for me. I have meh feelings about pretty much all of the episode, I didn't even stop to think about how dumb getting on the elevator was, or how convenient that the Inners decided to let the Outers have the spotlight. I don't really know how to explain it, but the episode didn't really grab me.
I also felt Tomoe's and Kaori's backstory was unnecessary because it didn't even explain their motivations to be evil -we already knew Tomoe had been rejected by the scientific community, and Kaori was "converted" without much persuasion, it doesn't make sense why a scientist would suddenly be swayed by the promise of "more power", but w/e-. So those few minutes were pretty much a waste of screentime.
Sailor Moon's great epiphany about trusting herself once again felt shallow to me because her sudden sinking into despair/darkness/loneliness was just so randomly placed and made no sense. Also, having the scene take place mere seconds after Haruka gives her the "answer" made it feel quite rushed, and lacking in any emotional investment. I understand that it's important that the magical girl trusts herself, the whole thing seems just like hammering in the whole "Sailor Moon is flawless and perfect and everybody loves her and she can do no wrong" which is just... ugh. This part made me recall the episode in Card Captor Sakura in which she faces the Dark card and must struggle to find the Light that resides within her. The latter is a much more effective example of the hero learning to believe in her own powers and using that strength to save everyone.
Something that has bothered me endlessly since the second season is the fact that the Silver Millenium has these Outer guardians that are, for all intents and purposes, exiled and condemned to eternal solitude, and once again, no one questions this. I mean, we can all agree that sending your loyal warriors to the confines of the universe with no means of communication and nothing to do but occassionally fend off threats is a really shitty thing to do. Honestly, the fact that none of these Senshis who for all we know have been literally alone for centuries (or millenia?!) don't resent the queen that sent them in such a thankless, joyless mission is rather unbelievable (I know, plot convenience, Sailor Moon is a flawless perfect queen and everyone loves her and will do anything for her, but it's terrible writing). For crying out loud, at least the men of the Night's Watch have their brothers in arms to keep each other company and do occassionally get to slack off and have fun.
I was also bothered by the fact that, when Usagi thought of the happinness she wanted to protect, she thought of Mamoru and Chibiusa and even of Hotaru, but not a single thought was spared for her "friends". I guess they all deserve each other, the Inners gave up on fighting for Usagi at the first minuscule temptation and Usagi will abandon them at the drop of a hat for Mamoru. This is honestly the most disappointing aspect of this whole series for me.
Even the good ideas are basically just thrown out the window, like Usagi's possible conflict over killing Hotaru's father. I would've liked more introspection, or maybe more regret after she was forced to kill him to save Haruka, but the writing didn't even give us time for that because the Inners were obliterated seconds after the fact. It's like they're just going through a checklist of plot points, thus not allowing any of the moments to have any emotional weight. |
No offense, but I'm having a hard time understanding why you even watch Crystal in the first place. I mean it's obvious you have a lot of problems with it as well as Naoko's writing. You criticize the hell out of it and you rarely have anything positive to say. I'm fully aware that Sailor Moon itself of far from a perfect masterpiece, but judging from the the tone of your comments you make it out to be complete garbage. A lot of the issues you're taking up with Crystal can't be help because it's following the manga to a T. For better or worse the issues is the Crystal are being copied into the manga. Which is why the classic anime exists; to alleviate the issues that the manga possessed.
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SailorNaruto
Joined: 16 Mar 2016
Posts: 195
Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:38 am
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My God, it's like beating a dead horse. For the life of me, until I my last breathe, I'll NEVER understand why people who are obviously dissatisfied with Crystal continue to watch. When it was announced in 2014 that Crystal was going to be a faithful manga adaption we knew what was going to take place; at least I did. A lot of the issues being brought up over and over again can't be helped because they were already in the manga. Usagi supposedly being perfect (which I've yet to see, but I digress), the lack of characterization; all of it was already in the manga to begin with. Complaining about it now isn't going to accomplish anything, nor is constantly comparing Crystal to the classic anime when the two are very different series that, aside from sharing a name, aren't similar in the least.
Anyway, this episode was a little lackluster compared to last week's. The elevator scene was also subpar compared to its manga counterpart. I'd give it a 6.5/10.
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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5909
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:18 am
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I'm sorry, but I thought CrowLia's comments were thoughtful. It made me think.
As long as discussion is polite and respectfully, there shouldn't be problems with people's opinions and discussion.
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Lord Starfish
Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Posts: 159
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:28 am
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SailorNaruto wrote: | A lot of the issues you're taking up with Crystal can't be help because it's following the manga to a T. For better or worse the issues is the Crystal are being copied into the manga. Which is why the classic anime exists; to alleviate the issues that the manga possessed. |
...But it isn't. Sailor Moon Crystal has never been a perfect 1=1 adaptation of the manga. Some scenes have been removed, others have been added, others still have been altered for various reasons. And unlike the first season which I seriously can't think of a single positive thing to say about, some of the stuff Toei has done here has actually changed the story for the better. Not everything had worked, but things like cutting out some of the repeated exposition or slowing down the pace a bit by splitting the first chapter? Sure, those were good changes to make. And excusing all the manga's issues by saying "But the 90s anime exists!" is problematic in more ways than one. Not least of which being that that show had its own slew of problems that weren't present in the manga, which is why I always wanted Crystal to draw from the strenghts of both the manga and anime to create a work stronger than both were on their own.
...This season has been the closest I feel we've gotten to this hypothetical perfect Sailor Moon anime though. But it still obviously has a long way to go, because CrowLia's complaints are very much valid.
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CrowLia
Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5527
Location: Mexico
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:40 am
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@SailorNaruto
First of all, I watch because I want to. Some of us take enjoyment in watching something terrible and then writing down all the things that are terrible about it. I don't have anyone with whom I could discuss these matters, so I write them down here, also to hear what others have to say about the flaws I find in the series.
Secondly, being a faithful manga adaptation is not an excuse for poor writing and characterization. This is a 20+ year old manga, it's obvious lots of aspects of it would not hold up in the present day. That doesn't mean a good story can't be made out of it. Look at Ushio to Tora. They're not changing anything from the manga, they've just fixed the pacing, ommitted unnecessary stuff and directed the show in a way that makes things actually matter.
Actually the comparison is rather apt, seeing how both series have about the same amount of episodes. See Ushio is also kind of "too perfect", and "too beloved", but he's earned it. He's shown me he cares, he's proved why people are so drawn to him. And we've heard, repeatedly, all the good qualities people see in him. Not the case with Usagi, since we've barely seen her interact with any of her so-called friends in an "emotional" way, and we never actually see her friends thinking about the good things they see on her. When Haruka says the princess was their light of hope, why is it? What about this tyrannical queen and princess that they never ever get to see gives them hope and joy? Just the fact that they exist, apparently.
Ushio's friendships with other characters are also very believable because we see them fighting for each other. We saw all the girls combing his hair to bring him back from his beast mode. We've seen Tora grow fond of him over the course of the show. We've seen how his relationship with Mayuko and Asako has changed. We saw the impact he's had in the yokai world and in the exorcist sect. I feel like I know these characters and care about them. I haven't seen Usagi impacting on any of her friends, and they show up together every damn episode. For the life of me I really can't give you any of the senshis' personality traits except for the out-of-nowhere details that were fed to us in the Labyrinth. Their lives might be in mortal danger right now, but I probably wouldn't even notice if they died because their role in the series is so insignificant.
Besides, it's not like this show is completely faithful to the manga. There was that whole Shitennou debacle if you remember, but I actually haven't read the manga so I don't have much room to argue here. But if Toei coul take the liberty of making such a huge change to the story, it means they could've easily improved on the other lacking aspects of the manga -the dumb plot and the non-existant character development-. They chose not to, and Crystal should not be spared of criticism because of that.
Also, I am actually not comparing it to the Classic anime because I haven't watched it. I watched the Super S arc only, but that was years ago and I honestly don't remember much of it other than I liked it. The fact is that Crystal does not stand on its own, not the terrible first two seasons, nor this slightly improved (look-wise, because the story is as poorly done as before) third one, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out what is wrong with it. Yes, it's useless, but saying "it's awesome" is useless too so...
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2265
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:44 pm
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SailorNaruto wrote: | For the life of me, until I my last breathe, I'll NEVER understand why people who are obviously dissatisfied with Crystal continue to watch. |
To be fair, I watched Guilty Crown all the way through even though even episode (aside from the excellent first two) made me want to bang my head against a wall. Why? Eh, for me it was mostly potential. Guilty Crown occasionally had glimmers of brilliance that made me think that maybe, just maybe, the next episode would improve upon that. (Spoilers: it did not.)
While my stance on Crystal's third season isn't as harsh as CrowLia's (I do think it improved significantly on the first two seasons in pacing alone), it feels largely the same for me here; Crystal offers shining moments of "Hey, that was pretty good" to just flat out "Holy shit, that was awesome! ", but it also shares that space with some of the worst trope-y writing Naoko indulges in (like making Haruka more of a Takarazuka wish-fulfillment fantasy and less of a fully-realized character, in my opinion). Plus, it's colored by my experience of the generally-agreed-to-be-awesome Classic Infinity arc, which seems to have taken a lot of the stuff Naoko alludes to and expanded upon it intelligently.
It's admittedly not fair to Crystal that I already have these preconceptions of a "good" Infinity arc, and try as I might, it's definitely coloring my reaction to Season 3. But if nothing else, CrowLia offers the opinion of someone who seems to have totally missed the Classic bandwagon and is hopping on now, 20 years later, after seeing everything else Sailor Moon has spawned.
It's not totally surprising to me that someone without any kind of nostalgia for Sailor Moon anything tends to see more of what Crystal does wrong/poorly rather than what it does right, if only because we've had 20 years of shows based on "what Crystal did right". Kind of like if someone tells you Citizen Kane was the first movie to show indoor ceilings (movie sets weren't built with roofs back then). At the time, I'm sure most film folks at the time went "Bwaaaah? What magic is this?" whereas most of us today just shrug and go "Meh."
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SailorNaruto
Joined: 16 Mar 2016
Posts: 195
Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:10 pm
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whiskeyii wrote: |
SailorNaruto wrote: | For the life of me, until I my last breathe, I'll NEVER understand why people who are obviously dissatisfied with Crystal continue to watch. |
To be fair, I watched Guilty Crown all the way through even though even episode (aside from the excellent first two) made me want to bang my head against a wall. Why? Eh, for me it was mostly potential. Guilty Crown occasionally had glimmers of brilliance that made me think that maybe, just maybe, the next episode would improve upon that. (Spoilers: it did not.)
While my stance on Crystal's third season isn't as harsh as CrowLia's (I do think it improved significantly on the first two seasons in pacing alone), it feels largely the same for me here; Crystal offers shining moments of "Hey, that was pretty good" to just flat out "Holy shit, that was awesome! ![Very Happy](/bbs/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) ", but it also shares that space with some of the worst trope-y writing Naoko indulges in (like making Haruka more of a Takarazuka wish-fulfillment fantasy and less of a fully-realized character, in my opinion). Plus, it's colored by my experience of the generally-agreed-to-be-awesome Classic Infinity arc, which seems to have taken a lot of the stuff Naoko alludes to and expanded upon it intelligently.
It's admittedly not fair to Crystal that I already have these preconceptions of a "good" Infinity arc, and try as I might, it's definitely coloring my reaction to Season 3. But if nothing else, CrowLia offers the opinion of someone who seems to have totally missed the Classic bandwagon and is hopping on now, 20 years later, after seeing everything else Sailor Moon has spawned.
It's not totally surprising to me that someone without any kind of nostalgia for Sailor Moon anything tends to see more of what Crystal does wrong/poorly rather than what it does right, if only because we've had 20 years of shows based on "what Crystal did right". Kind of like if someone tells you Citizen Kane was the first movie to show indoor ceilings (movie sets weren't built with roofs back then). At the time, I'm sure most film folks at the time went "Bwaaaah? What magic is this?" whereas most of us today just shrug and go "Meh." |
You make a lot of sense. I am in the majority of people who thinks that season 3 of the classic anime is the best, so I have to agree with you on this statement. Now then, I guess I have a hard time understanding the complaints of people who are blinded by nostalgia because I'm not blinded by it. Now don't get me wrong; I absolutely adore the classic anime. It's the very first anime I ever watched and it's what got made me into the anime fan that I am today. Even so, there are multiple things in the classic anime that I don't care for, which is why hold the manga in such high regards. If I had to compare, I'd say I favor the manga just a tad bit more that I do the classic anime. But does that mean I hate the classic anime? No I don't. Far from it, actually. But a part of me has always wished that it was just a tad bit more faithful to the manga.
Which brings me to Sailor Moon Crystal. The majority of the hate Crystal gets comes from people who've only ever watched the classic anime and never even glanced at the manga; being fully unaware of the distinct differences between the two. I'm fully aware that Crystal doesn't have the same fleshed out characters that classic anime does. And I'm OK with that. Why? Because I'm also aware that's how they were in the manga; that can't be helped. Having read the manga a dozen times, I knew what to expect.
One of the reasons I enjoyed Crystal so much was because of how different it was from the classic anime. I'm in the minority on this, but I liked the cgi transformations. I also really liked the animation style in seasons 1 & 2. Aside from having people who didn't know what they were doing animate it, the art style was just fine in my eyes. Instead of revamping the entire style in season 3, better animators should've been brought on. Because as it stands now, SMC looks too much like the classic anime now, which kind of defeats the purpose. It annoys me, but I've learned to live with it. I'm also not blind to Crystal's shortcomings either.
All in all, my main point is that constantly comparing SMC to the classic anime isn't doing anything useful.
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Zhou-BR
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 1456
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:20 pm
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Maybe someone has already mentioned this a bunch of posts ago, but all this talk about Sailor Saturn being the "guardian of death", while Sailor Pluto is the "guardian of time" really makes me think those two should have switched planets.
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SailorNaruto
Joined: 16 Mar 2016
Posts: 195
Location: Illinois, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:40 pm
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I liked this episode. A lot more than I did with last week's episode. I pretty much agree with the author on all points this time, although I wouldn't go so far as to say Sailor Chibi Moon has surpassed Sailor Moon, but she is coming into her own as a Guardian rather quickly. I was also severely annoyed that Tuxedo Mask had to come in and tell the Senshi to do their jobs. I thought we were past that. I literally had to fight the urge to yell at my tablet "MOVE! Stop standing around like statues and FIGHT THE FREAKING ENEMY!" But I didn't. Because 1. that would've made me looks like a psychopath . And 2. I know that a lot is going on and it's very trying, both physically and emotionally, for then. So I let that slide.
I just LOVE Hotaru in this episode. Even as a disembodied soul she she's fighting. She said it herself: her dad is gone; what reasons does she still have to cling to her body? Even though she's lost practically everything she just knows that there's a still a bigger picture; that there's still a reason that she MUST fight. You have to admire her for that. That's one thing that's present in Hotaru in the manga, the classic anime, and Crystal; her will. Her gumption and her determination not to disappear.
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Minimimiau
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 194
Location: somewhere on this planet.
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:51 pm
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personally I almost cry with this episode: Hotaru's defending the spirits of the 4 senshis and ChibiUsa and how she says good bye with Hotaru...
And fthe clips of nex't episode are... I got hype, Basically Saturn finally arrived.
Zhou-BR wrote: | Maybe someone has already mentioned this a bunch of posts ago, but all this talk about Sailor Saturn being the "guardian of death", while Sailor Pluto is the "guardian of time" really makes me think those two should have switched planets. |
Yup, that's true. Takeuchi made a mistake with those two.
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Animechic420
Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 1731
Location: A Cave Filled With Riches
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:52 pm
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SailorNaruto wrote: | Which brings me to Sailor Moon Crystal. The majority of the hate Crystal gets comes from people who've only ever watched the classic anime and never even glanced at the manga; being fully unaware of the distinct differences between the two. I'm fully aware that Crystal doesn't have the same fleshed out characters that classic anime does. And I'm OK with that. Why? Because I'm also aware that's how they were in the manga; that can't be helped. Having read the manga a dozen times, I knew what to expect. |
While watching the classic Sailor Moon back in the day, I had no knowledge of manga's existence. Only years after Sailor Moon ended did I find out about manga and that the anime didn't follow it completely. Knowing that, I wasn't gonna buy manga (not that I could; I was a kid, had no money and wasn't much of a reader). But it was fine. Just knowing they two were different made me hole out a bit longer. Now years later when Sailor Moon Crystal was announced, I was very excited because it meant I'll get to see the manga's story. I ended up liking everything about it and I never understood why people were so quick to bash.
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whiskeyii
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2265
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:34 pm
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I managed to surprise myself this episode; I thought it was one of the stronger ones we've had so far. I felt like the opening two or three minutes did an great job of raising the stakes and showing the devastation Master Pharaoh 90's arrival was doing to the planet. A really excellent job there as far as I'm concerned. I thought the seemingly intentional lopsidedness to all the art also helped create a real sense of unease, and Mistress 9 herself felt like a real threat here, rather than a strange mish-mash of "Hotaru's version of Black Lady". A few of Hotaru's interactions with Chibi-Usa and her monologues felt like they dragged on just a little too long (maybe a desperate attempt to fill the 22-minute mark), but overall, I liked seeing Hotaru's internal struggle.
That said, I think the show really caved in under the weight of its own ambition here. It was fine up til about 3/4 of the way through the episode, and even then there were an awful lot of awkward stills thrown in with some pretty decent animation. But by the time Chibi-Moon made her entrance, you could really tell the art was struggling to make it to the finish line. That really hampered the double transformation scene for me, and the scene where the Senshi give their power to Sailor Moon.
SailorNaruto wrote: | I also really liked the animation style in seasons 1 & 2. Aside from having people who didn't know what they were doing animate it, the art style was just fine in my eyes. Instead of revamping the entire style in season 3, better animators should've been brought on. Because as it stands now, SMC looks too much like the classic anime now, which kind of defeats the purpose. It annoys me, but I've learned to live with it. |
I do want to address this, because I've seen it tossed around a lot, but there's a really big misunderstanding about an anime's art style and the quality of its animation. Simply put, the simpler the style, the easier it is to animate. Given how even this season, with its bigger budget and simpler style, is still struggling to maintain a consistent level of quality all the way through single episodes, I sincerely doubt that just switching over this team to Season 1 and 2's art style would've done very much to improve it. Toei, as a studio, just isn't well suited to the more detailed shoujo styles; even Precure, arguably the franchise with Toei's best animation, benefits from a very simple style. I don't think your hypothetical mashup would've been as bad as Seasons 1 and 2, but I also don't think it would've been anywhere near the level of Season 3's quality and consistency.
EDIT: Though I can totally understand your frustrations in seeing what kind of amounts to a down-grade in art style.
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#838774
Joined: 27 May 2015
Posts: 158
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:09 pm
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Toei's problem is that they aren't fit to animate in general. The more complex the art style, though, the more difficult it is to animate. The beginning of this season was pretty good and then the quality took a nose dive straight into embarrassingly bad. They can do passable animation, but there is no quality control whatsoever. If they continued in the same art style as the first half, though, it would be even less consistant. There's also a lack of creativity in how they translate the manga into animation who we all know has issues of its own.
The only blessing Crystal will give us is AMVs that cut out all their shitty animation gaffs.
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