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jr240483 wrote:

stowrag wrote:

I hated the tone shift towards humor the first time I watched ZZ. It just never seemed to have a place in a war drama, which is what I always thought Gundam was supposed to be about. I think I might be more receptive to it today. I doubt I'll ever enjoy watching Moon Moon though.

What really got to me was the complete 180 Haman's character takes spoiler[when she seemed to change from a master manipulator trying to rule the universe through a puppet child dictator to someone who apparently genuinely thought a 10 year old would make a good ruler for the universe.]

That, and the spoiler[Sayla Ex Machina.]

But yeah, Roux is amazing at least.

Ex Machina ? what does that supposed to mean.

They are referring to the sort of Deus Ex Machina of how suddenly Sayla is incorporated into ZZ for one big reason and nothing else. That being: spoiler[ she happens to save Leina out of the blue when she apparently died unbeknownst to Judau and everyone else that she was still alive. ] I believe Tomino did have a few cuts of Sayla before that big plot point dropped, but it was kind of subtle, and that she just so happened to have such a big part by coincidence is a bit weird. Even spoiler[ Leina's "death" ] almost seemed like a cop-out, Judau couldn't "sense" them and was trying to just carry on until suddenly he just DOES at one point, and I've heard some say they saw that person escaping in a brief shot or something, but all I saw was Judau holding their shoe which didn't really mean much at the time, especially considering the aforementioned bit of him not sensing that person's presence anymore and grieving. I mentioned earlier though that I do like that Tomino used certain plot points to make Judau become more involved and shape his resolve into something more meaningful and larger than it was before, and I'm also partly glad that there was that "cop-out" in a sense, because it served as a nice reward at the end of it all to make the ending even happier after 150 episodes of strife. Although I wish spoiler[ my poor Purus got to live Anime cry

.]

This is why it's always risky to have Tomino do two series back to back; it results in serious whiplash.

Minor correction to the article that I did not see addressed, though someone may want to check how well this qualifies as a "correction" - Anime Daisuki/DAISUKI.NET actually did an official, English run of the entire Gundam ZZ series on their streaming service in the past. It was allegedly the first time it was broadcast in any form in English with the official Gundam license behind it (according to their press release). The original announcement was at Anime Expo back in 2013 if I'm not mistaken.

I lament that Gundam ZZ gets a ton of flak. Especially sitting next to Reconguista in G, the show is a lot more pleasant & fitting to the rest of the UC Gundam timeline than its negative critics would suggest (Reconguista doesn't get that luxury sadly). It really bothers me that the newer Zeta Gundam movies tried to wipe Double-Zeta out & bridge the story to Char's Counterattack, as you miss a lot of the politics and emotion surrounding that point in the UC timeline by skipping ZZ.

To anyone watching Gundam ZZ for the first time, possibly consider letting some time pass and not-watching it immediately after Zeta Gundam so that the tonal shift doesn't throw you as much. Having seen the series in its entirety (albeit a few years ago now), it seems best to go into Gundam ZZ with the knowledge that Judau and the rest of his crew are shitty teens in a poverty-stricken environment that eventually get slapped upside the head by the adult horrors of the reality around them & they are forced to grow out of it.

Also note that the way Mashymre envisions and idolises his interactions with Haman during the open episodes of the show is rather likely him romanticising the fantasy of being her prince - she pretty much just dumped him and the rest of his bumbling platoon out to the same junk heap that Judau inhabits (by chance) to get rid of him and his overbearing fanclub. With recruits running thin amongst the Zeon army (they keep getting blown up by Gundams), all that's left are idiots like Mashymre by this point, and Haman eventually disciplines him for his failures in a fairly horrifying way if you stick around to watch.

I also like the juxtaposition between Haman and Judau as the series goes on and Judau's presence becomes more & more a thorn in her side. The thought that Char essentially steps aside after Zeta Gundam and "may be watching from the sidelines" (as the characters in the show mention) leaves her pretty much alone and solely responsible for the hopes and dreams of the failing Zeon youth & nation. Amidst the friction this responsibility causes, the question is raised "If Haman had the same start at life that Judau was given, would she have turned out a better person rather than a product of her responsibilities".....or something along those lines. It has a lot to do with the seriousness of the second opening for the show, and is probably one of my fav anime openings ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73sg62fFZSY

Gundam Unicorn later takes a fair bit of character backstory from Gundam ZZ, and in paying attention to the general theme of science-gone-wrong & the younger characters' innocence being corrupted as Gundam ZZ continues onward, the eventual fate of some of the characters spoiler[Marida Cruz, an Elpeo Puru clone in particular] makes for a rather horrifying & tragic emotional payoff given what all that subject matter is eventually left to imply.

Quick note about the mention of the "Ex Machina" situation for people that have seen all Gundam shows - spoiler[would it be reasonable, if not a bit of a stretch, to assume that Char or Sayla could have been working behind the scenes, and happened to rescue a comatose Leina from a Zeon hospital off-camera? Given all of the cyber-newtype brainwashing shenanigans that happen to the Puru clones, I could easily see either Haman or Glemy grabbing a near-death & comatose Leina with the intent of later nursing her back to health & turning her into a tragic opponent for Judau to face.....though that role is eventually left to Puru as I recall.]

LinkTSwordmaster wrote:

Also note that the way Mashymre envisions and idolises his interactions with Haman during the open episodes of the show is rather likely him romanticising the fantasy of being her prince - she pretty much just dumped him and the rest of his bumbling platoon out to the same junk heap that Judau inhabits (by chance) to get rid of him and his overbearing fanclub. With recruits running thin amongst the Zeon army (they keep getting blown up by Gundams), all that's left are idiots like Mashymre by this point, and Haman eventually disciplines him for his failures in a fairly horrifying way if you stick around to watch.

^100 times this. Haman was likely doing a lot of political maneuvering and restructuring coming off the heels of the Battle of Gryps. She got the best end out of the 3 sides arguably, but her forces still suffered considerable damage and she had to plan her the long term for her Neo Zeon. Mashmyre and his group could still put pressure on the AEUG and such, although the expendable nature of his group is a double-edged sword, not a big loss if they fail but not the best means of nipping AEUG in the bud I guess. They did fail after all and Judau's gang advances on Neo Zeon, but it's certainly not purely based on that bad judgement either with Glemy (and really, his circumstances would be likely for many people in Neo Zeon's scenario at the time, and I'm glad Tomino explored this) starting to have his own motives spoiler[ later starting a sort of civil war to make a new 3-way conflict.] I thought his development was great and made for some cool plot threads also reinforcing the series ideas of dwindling convictions, dissenting ideologies and growing weary of conflict put broadly.

Angel'sArcanum wrote:

with Glemy (and really, his circumstances would be likely for many people in Neo Zeon's scenario at the time, and I'm glad Tomino explored this) starting to have his own motives spoiler[ later starting a sort of civil war to make a new 3-way conflict.] I thought his development was great and made for some cool plot threads also reinforcing the series ideas of dwindling convictions, dissenting ideologies and growing weary of conflict put broadly.

I'd argue that this is pretty much the tone & lead-in to Char's Counterattack, given him seeming "emotionally checked out" towards humanity, yet still recognising the value of Haman's accomplishments spoiler[ - it's likely Haman's Zeon would have won the war if Glemy had not interfered, yet an opportunity arose for Glemy to assume power due to Haman being spread so thin across the war front]. His name/pedigree plus the outcome of Haman's war sets the stage for him to swoop in and unite what remains of Zeon. You miss a lot of the depth of the Zeon peoples' hopes and nationalism going into the Counterattack movie if you skip Gundam ZZ I think.

Concerning Haman specifically (and again, for people that have already seen everything), spoiler[I'd argue to the death that Haman is set up to be the UC timeline's ultimate tragic character given that her series ends with her fully conscious of the fact that she was running the Neo Zeon empire in an "end justifies the means" fashion and regretting it in hindsight. Judau's successes convince her things could have ended differently, yet her world never gave her the opportunity to change and grow much in the same way Judau was able/afforded.]

I'd like to quote Ryusuke Hikawa from The History of Robot Anime; Double Zeta Gundam is "redundant in name and in content".

LinkTSwordmaster wrote:

I lament that Gundam ZZ gets a ton of flak. Especially sitting next to Reconguista in G, the show is a lot more pleasant & fitting to the rest of the UC Gundam timeline than its negative critics would suggest (Reconguista doesn't get that luxury sadly). It really bothers me that the newer Zeta Gundam movies tried to wipe Double-Zeta out & bridge the story to Char's Counterattack, as you miss a lot of the politics and emotion surrounding that point in the UC timeline by skipping ZZ.

I think ZZ had a really strong finish. I can't really disagree with the flak it gets, but I think the second half makes the entire series finish strong. G-Reco might have been able to do that if it had another 20 or more episodes for the strong finish instead of like 3, but it didn't... and thus it is total garbage.

The Zeta movies didn't bridge CCA at all. It removed CCA from existence just like it removed ZZ. spoiler[Char was able to unite the remnants of a leaderless, shattered Neo Zeon. In the Zeta movies, Haman essentially won at Gryps and Zeon is united under her (and Minerva). Yeah, they suffered major losses as well and retreated away from the Earth, but there is no chance in hell Haman would cede control to Char nor do I think many of Zeon's commanders would side with him after Haman came away on top at Gryps and Char tried to get in their way.] Not really sure that needs to be spoilered since ZZ is a direct sequel and the outcome of the battle is gone over in episode 1 of ZZ, but whatever.

Fronzel wrote:

I'd like to quote Ryusuke Hikawa from The History of Robot Anime; Double Zeta Gundam is "redundant in name and in content".

Um, no. Zeta is more like just half of the story. The end is a cliffhanger where the 'good guys' are in considerably worse shape than the 'bad guys' (technically the Titans got it the worst though).

Fronzel wrote:

The History of Robot Anime[/url]; Double Zeta Gundam is "redundant in name and in content".

Except audiences still can eat up the same greasy burger styled media until they are puking out there guts, at the very least Double Zeta is different enough from modern media productions that it appears unique enough for a new audience, if its for good or ill depends on the individual viewers tastes.