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grooven
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1426
Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:43 pm
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Now I see why there is such a delay in announcements. I hope this gets resolved.
crosswithyou wrote: | Unless vendors signed a contract when they booked their spaces that they agree to a background check, I don't know how AX can just spring this on them. I mean, wouldn't the contract be different than what was originally agreed upon? |
Very true. If they didn't sign for this in their agreement, from my understanding, this wouldn't hold up in court if they decided to bail.
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ResistNormal
Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 117
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:51 pm
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Agent355 wrote: |
ResistNormal wrote: |
The people who brought guns Pokemon Championships bragged about online and where arrested n the garage before ever reaching the convention, the Security did nothing. It's great that some people feel safe but they are not, as a result of the security check points people end up in long line queues outside the secured area creating a massive pool of soft targets where if attacked the casualties would already be extremely high. The check point makes you extremely unsafe. You cannot effectively search that many people in cosplay it's pointless. If people what to feel super safe, stay home and wrap up in bubble-rap. |
Just because a security method isn't perfect doesn't mean that a private event shouldn't provide any security. The cosplay just makes ir more important to check people for weapons. I heard NYCC confiscated a lot of cosplay pieces that violated its weapons policy last year, and I'm glad they did. NYCC is crowded and confusing enough without armed idiots poking you with dangerous "toys" |
Prop checks where always done, that's not the problem or an issue. Pointless bag searches, pat downs, and pocket emptying before metal detectors create massive lines that create friction between the con and surrounding businesses. It keeps no one safe, unless you cut open all cosplay props to see what they are really made of. All the AnimeBoston secruity measures have done is put people danger by having so many people in tightly pack queues before security. Anything can happen to you while your are waiting in line to be "safe." Sporting events don't have elaborate coslays, concerts, don't either so that comparison is ridiculous. The only way to secure an event like an anime con is to completely ban cosplay and since it has become such intricate part of the con experience there is no way. This is really about lucrative security company contacts and police overtime Than anything else. If your really want to feel safe build a pillow fort and stay home.
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Zalis116
Moderator
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6895
Location: Kazune City
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 6:51 pm
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one.night.bkk wrote: | I honestly don't understand this "Protect the children!" security mindset that gets angrier and crazier every year. We need common sense, not bizarre "security" measures, to prevent what let's just lump together as "bad things." |
Imo it stems from the helicopter parents, the kids/teens themselves, and other moral watchdogs expecting a couple thousand volunteer staffers to police every interpersonal interaction among tens of thousands of congoers. And this aptly-described "security theater" is what gives them reassurance, apparently. The safety of all congoers of all ages should be a priority, of course, but it's telling that no other major convention has taken such drastic measures.
MidoriUma wrote: | You know what happened at Aki Con a couple years ago? Things like that are the reason these things are necessary. |
As I recall, that was the same event that put its dealers/artists room in a parking garage on at least two occasions -- more a sign of gross incompetence on the part of that convention's organizers than an indication of pedophiles and rapists lurking behind every hotel hallway corner and under every vendor's table.
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Suena
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 289
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:04 pm
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If I'm reading this right, it only applies to anyone who's not a regular attendee?
That sounds pretty ineffective, since the vast majority of sexual-related harassment happening at anime cons (that I hear about) are being perpetrated by amateur photographers. A much better solution would be to strongly urge attendees to use the buddy system (especially those who are underage or otherwise vulnerable) so nobody’s ever left alone with a stranger. If people would do that, it would probably cut down a large portion (maybe even up to 95%) of incidents.
And also, to add to the comments on background checks: I knew a poor guy who was arrested for murder. It was actually another guy with the same name they wanted (he has an unusual name, so I guess they didn’t bother to see if there might be more than one person in the state with it). Even though he was quickly released after they realized the mistake, it stayed on his record for YEARS. And apparently jobs don’t want to hire someone who has a murder arrest on his record, so he had a hard time finding work for a while (he was ~18 at the time).
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amagee
Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 333
Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:21 pm
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Doesn't the background check requirement also extend to people delivering panels? I wonder if they've discussed whether these attendees would need to pay for their own background check if they do require them.
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NeoStrayCat
Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 627
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:45 pm
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Suena wrote: | If I'm reading this right, it only applies to anyone who's not a regular attendee? |
You are correct there, it doesn't affect attendees.
amagee wrote: | Doesn't the background check requirement also extend to people delivering panels? I wonder if they've discussed whether these attendees would need to pay for their own background check if they do require them. |
From what I read before, it also affected panelists too, unless some kind of change differentiated the clause. As i said before, the policy doesn't affect attendees, only other levels (Volunteers, Vendors/Exhibitors, Guests/Industry, etc.)
But yeah, this policy...seriously. >.>
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ikillchicken
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:54 pm
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Quote: | It's Insulting: Picture this, “Hi, you're one of the top manga artists in Japan, and we'd really like to have you as a guest of honor at our show, but first we need to make sure you aren't a child molester.” This is straight up offensive; |
One other thing I neglected to mention in my initial post: I find this line of thinking to be deeply concerning. I think taking personal offense at a security precaution is foolish to begin with but this specific reasoning is even worse. It's this idea that someone is a renowned artist, author, actor or other celebrity, and therefore it's downright offensive to suggest they're anything less that a saint. In reality, people really need to get over this notion of "I saw this guy on TV/read his comic book so obviously I know him on a personal level and can trust him". It's precisely this attitude that allows people in prestigious positions to abuse that position. The fact that you're famous and/or talented doesn't say shit about your character.
Jariten wrote: | As one of the exhibitors who is being asked to spend more than 5 times the cost of our booth space on background checks alone, I'd like to ask those of you who are advocating so strongly for this policy to ask yourselves:
1) Why is this kind of background check not required of literally any other trade show you could name? I've exhibited with my previous employers at scuba industry shows, education industry shows, AARP shows... NONE of these shows require a background check. None.
2) Consider the track record of anime conventions. Fanime had an issue with people in 8 hour registration lines passing out and going to the hospital. Staff of countless cons have been accused of harassment. Fans talk on and on about boycotting or skipping shows, but it hasn't slowed growth one bit. If this issue is important - and let's be honest, it IS - there needs to be a grassroots movement to hold all conventions accountable in a reasonable way. That's not what is happening here. On that note...
3) As much as I hate to say this... have any of you considered how little impact fan opinion has on these shows? Anime Conventions have literally no incentive to repair or adjust policies because no matter what happens, people will still show up. Only ONE only major anime con in the last five years has seen a major attendance drop. However, if vendors - the people who actually pay for space at a convention and help fund the use of convention centers and hotels - have issue with a policy? That's a direct threat to an event's bottom line.
I don't say any of this to say "the vendors are right and the fans are wrong." I merely want to point out how out-of-bounds this policy is and to showcase that, no matter what you think of this policy, all anime fans owe it to themselves to better educate themselves about the events we attend. |
1) Most "trade shows" don't cater predominantly to minors. Obviously anime conventions can be an all ages event but realistically, they're increasingly for (unsupervised) teens. And lots of organizations of that sort do require checks. For instance, many juvenile sports leagues require them for coaches/supervisors. It simply comes with being in a position where you'll be working predominantly with minors.
2) I don't even really see what your argument is here. All cons have problems and therefore this con is wrong to enact a policy attempting to address this problems? That's just illogical. Anime cons have a ton of issues and the only way to address them is to start somewhere. Suggesting we should sit on our hands waiting for some pie in the sky solution by which suddenly all conventions solve all their issues is just nonsense.
3) Gosh, call me crazy but I actually think the "bottom line" is less important than preventing minors from getting molested. I mean bloody hell. Is this an argument you're seriously making? "Sure people have gotten assaulted at cons but while that mat have looked bad, 'fan opinion' doesn't matter so who cares?" What is wrong with you?
HeeroTX wrote: |
H. Guderian wrote: | Not a fan of these checks, any way you slice it. If someone is young enough to be taken advantage of, they should have a Guardian. Shouldn't a guardian be with their charge at all times? All this extra cost and damage to a con, that actually doesn't have any teeth when it comes to protecting people. |
This more than anything is why I hate this idea. Anime conventions should not be daycare for your tween children. Any parent who thinks an anime convention is a "safe space" to leave their child should be BLUNTLY disabused of that notion. I'm not saying anime conventions should not BE "safe", but they should not be viewed as a good place to leave children unsupervised. |
This is such a weird argument to me. I mean, everyone is worried that this background check policy is going to kill the con. You know what would kill it much more effectively though? The need for constant parental supervision. I mean lets just follow this through to its logical conclusion. It's not safe to let your teenage kid go to AX unsupervised. That's what you're saying here. Right now, parents do this all the time because they don't realize this but what actually happens if and when they are "disabused of that notion" as you put it? At that point, any remotely responsible parent ought to do one of two things: A) Don't let your kid go to AX. B) Supervise your kid at AX at all times. Option A is terrible for the convention and applied universally would cost them most of their attendees. Sure, they'd still have older attendees but we all know teens are the lifeblood of cons these days. Option B is really no better though. Few if any parents are going to be willing to do this which just leads us back to option A. What's more though, no teenager is going to want to go under these conditions either.
This is the root problem: The lack of parental supervision is half the appeal of the whole con atmosphere for teens. It's a social thing as much as it is about the actual con itself. It's that you get to go and hang out for a weekend with all your weirdo anime friends and do your own thing without constant parental supervision. If these kids all have their moms tagging along it kinda spoils the whole point. This is why cons have exploded in popularity in the first place. They've reaped all the benefits but now they need to start pulling their weight by providing better security. I don't know exactly what form that should take but if they're going to continue to attract the audience they currently do they need to be precisely what you say they aren't: A reasonably safe space where parents can leave their teenage kids without personal supervision and trust that there is reasonable security oversight in place. If they can't be that then this is just not a workable business model. You can't sell your convention on the basis of it being a fun, unsupervised party for teens if it isn't safe for unsupervised teens. At least not without becoming a major safety hazard.
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HeeroTX
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:12 pm
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ikillchicken wrote: | A reasonably safe space where parents can leave their teenage kids without personal supervision and trust that there is reasonable security oversight in place. If they can't be that then this is just not a workable business model. You can't sell your convention on the basis of it being a fun, unsupervised party for teens if it isn't safe for unsupervised teens. At least not without becoming a major safety hazard. |
I KNOW I am in the minority of Con Organizers on this, and at this point am PROBABLY in the minority of con MEMBERS, but call me crazy but to ME an ANIME convention is for ANIME fans to get together and celebrate their hobby. You know what it ISN'T (or SHOULDN'T be)?
"a fun, unsupervised party for teens"
Granted, I went to my first anime con when I was in college, and times have changed, and blah blah blah. But part of why cons are changing the way they are is all in this attempt to appeal to teens and to try to get THEIR MONEY. As someone who has served as a con chair, I will say this: in my OPINION a "fan" convention should NEVER be about "getting your money" it should be about fans celebrating whatever interest the convention purports to be about, be it anime, or comics, or Star Wars, or whatever.
If your "kid" is 16, he/she can (possibly) drive off to whereever and get into whatever trouble they're capable of. If your kid is 14, they may know someone in high school that can enable the same thing. A fan convention is NOT a "supervised" event. It is a mass of people that at BEST share an interest with each other and at WORST don't really care about or have visibility on any single individual.
In the early 90s, we had conventions that had 1000 people or less that somehow were incredibly fun, welcoming and amazingly ALSO had great industry/fan interaction. Honestly, speaking ONLY for myself, yes I would VASTLY prefer to see anime conventions scale back down to what they used to be. NOT because of some hipster-style need to be "underground" or "niche", but because I'd prefer it to be about anime rather than the hodgepodge of crap it is now in order to bring in more dollars.
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Shadowrun20XX
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1936
Location: Vegas
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:46 pm
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Wow, more hoops for the vendors to jump is not good. Behind the scenes the costs add up and really there is no good answer for this issue. In my opinion kids do not belong at conventions Kids as in under 18. Minors. Much like E3 or Comic Con the large Trade shows, Anime Expo should absolutely not have to babysit con-goers or treat their vendors like criminals, its very insulting.
Most of us that grew up in the last few decades have witnessed some sort of creep praying on the youth of the cons. You always know to watch out for and yell at this type of behavior. I know a great deal of industry personnel that have shared stories of some sort of sleaze doing something they should't have been. Why now and not when the influx youth came into the scene almost 20 years ago? Because of that 17 year old bloodied in front of that Marriott or the minor that disappeared with the voice actor? Many have been violated since that go unreported I'd bet. Why now?
Who's agenda did this fit into? SPJA just got around to this now? Who are they trying to out? Why not other cons? Seriously, who keeps promoting the use of background checks? We have seen our media how useless they are time and time again. This will only hurt the con not fix the rapist following your kid around.
Or there is something they know, more info we obviously don't have focusing on "Vendors and guests background checks". The whole situation sucks.
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ikillchicken
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:26 pm
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HeeroTX wrote: | I KNOW I am in the minority of Con Organizers on this, and at this point am PROBABLY in the minority of con MEMBERS, but call me crazy but to ME an ANIME convention is for ANIME fans to get together and celebrate their hobby. You know what it ISN'T (or SHOULDN'T be)?
"a fun, unsupervised party for teens" |
That distinction between "isn't" and "shouldn't" is a pretty key point though. I don't particularly disagree with you about what should be the case. The reality is though, this is what cons have become. And regardless of what they should be, there's no way in hell that con organizers are ever going to deliberately try and radically shrink the scope of their events. It's just not gonna happen. Cons are predominantly for (frequently unsupervised) teens now and that won't change. The best we can really hope for is that they get better at overseeing these events to prevent anyone from taking advantage.
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Mad_Scientist
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 3011
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:38 pm
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[quote="HeeroTX"]
MidoriUma wrote: |
EDIT: And is it just the video ad at the top right, or is there some other flash/shockwave garbage that keeps messing with my browser and really wrecking havok with trying to utilize the forums? (is there some malicious code in the site?) |
Off topic, but I've been having a similar issue. Tons of weird slowdown, and often flash crashes. I think there's a thread about (possibly) the same issue in the technical support board.
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Joe Mello
Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 2290
Location: Online Terminal
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:17 pm
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I take issue with the structure of this article. There is nothing explaining what the Youth Policy was or how/why it came to be; it only states that the YPP could be changed and why the YPP is bad. How am I supposed to agree with your argument when you don't tell me what you're talking about? If I have to fill in the gaps myself, I'm going to be more interested in that than whatever point you're trying to make.
There are a lot of unnecessary potshots at this site's journalistic merits (particularly regarding what it covers) but when you practically leave an entire paragraph out of an original article, it makes it harder to view ANN as a viable news source.
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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5909
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:22 pm
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Well, if you all are really serious about this "protect the children" crap, then you better do it right. Everyone involved, especially the paying attendees, needs to be doing background checks and attending the sensitivity training. The vendors, artists, volunteers, and guests are a drop in the ocean when compared to the attendees. The attendees represent the greatest threat to the "children".
Though, ikillchicken I do agree with you about the current state of the cons. Personally, though, I think only Anime Expo has the clout to do all this. I don't believe that all the other anime conventions could do this without suffering from fan backlash, empty artist alleys, sparse dealer's room and an inability to get good guests. So I guess we will see how this all plays out this summer on the convention floor at Anime Expo. It almost sounds like politics.
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yoobinie
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 2
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:52 pm
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I'm honestly very disappointed that ANN published this article. In the past, ANN has delivered unbiased pieces (with the exception of things like reviews). However, this article clearly has a biased tilt and expects people to adopt the writer's opinion, leading to readers petitioning against this policy in favor of the writer's opinion. As a news site, this article should have been written without bias, explaining the full scope of the situation instead of simply providing the "negative outcomes".
I additionally want to point out that considering the prevalence of sexual assault and harassment at cons, taking a step such as this for the safety of attendees should be priority. I am greatly disappointed at the "child safety at cons is important BUT..." nature of the article. Prioritizing an individuals' pride over the safety of con-goers is a disgrace. I personally would like background checks done on attendees as well in order to create a safe space for people to enjoy cons without fear of predators. Regardless of my opinion, and although I'm sure this current policy will be tweaked as the years go by, forcing vendors and such to do background checks is a good step to making cons more safe for the many minors (and other victims of assault) that attend cons.
I maintain that without more exposition explaining the situation in conjunction with this piece, something akin to a news article with details on the whole scope of the situation (as many comments have pointed out already), the article becomes problematic. As a news site dedicated to informing fans on things within the focus of anime, why was this piece not brought to the attention of the community through a news article? If a policy is being enacted on the largest con in the US, why did our first wind of it come from an opinion piece? Included in said article are links to petitions trying to have the policy repealed. This feels fishy to me. Who benefits most from the repeal of this policy? The con-goers or the vendors?
Quote: | In the meantime, you can contact the SPJA to let them know that, for the sake of Anime Expo, they need to repeal this policy this year, and fix it for next year.
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Or if you are doing business with the SPJA, let your contact there know how you feel. |
This approach is not a "if you disagree with this position, then let it be known in this fashion" but simply states that it is something that must be done and does not provide (in my opinion) sufficient reasons for why con-goers would benefit from a safer con environment. For this opinion piece to remain valid on a site dedicated to informing individuals about happenings in the community, as readers, our first exposure to information should not be through a "sign this petition because I say so" format. In the past, ANN has provided pieces detailing a situation and provided links at the end of posts for those who wish to express their dissatisfaction with the contents. Why that format was not replicated for this post is troublesome.
Last edited by yoobinie on Mon May 16, 2016 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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crosswithyou
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 2895
Location: California
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:59 pm
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yoobinie wrote: | I'm honestly very disappointed that ANN published this article. In the past, ANN has delivered unbiased pieces (with the exception of things like reviews). However, this article clearly has a biased tilt and expects people to adopt the writer's opinion, leading to readers petitioning against this policy in favor of the writer's opinion. As a news site, this article should have been written without biased, explaining the full scope of the situation instead of simply providing the "negative outcomes". |
Um, the article was filed under "Views," which suggests that the article is going to be about the writer's view/opinion.
I think most people already understand the background context of the subject in the first place so it's not entirely necessary for it to be spelled out in the article.
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