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Ten Years of Death Note: Is Light The Bad Guy?


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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:39 am Reply with quote
Uh, why couldn't the Death Note have played a part in corrupting Light? We're talking about a supernatural notebook with the power to actually kill people! Last time I checked that's not exactly realistic. As to why others who used weren't corrupted, they didn't have it as long as Light did and their personalities were different. Well, that proves it you say! Light already had the capacity for evil; well so did Mikami but until he became a loyal follower of Kira, he appeared to have a normal life as an attorney. The main difference was that he seemed to have cultivated his rigid view of the world at a younger age and didn't seem to have much of a social life. Plus, we don't know anything about the previous users and how much or what they achieved. And as I said before, I don't think Ryuk is all that trustworthy.

I'm not trying to defend Light's actions; I do believe he became a villain but he did believe in what he was doing. He wasn't doing it just because he enjoyed tormenting people. And I don't think he was an especially unique evil person beforehand.
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jl07045



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:58 am Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
Uh, why couldn't the Death Note have played a part in corrupting Light? We're talking about a supernatural notebook with the power to actually kill people! Last time I checked that's not exactly realistic.

Maybe it also made him like eating potato chips, it's supernatural and all. But what is it in the show that suggests to you that DN also has a power to corrupt its user?
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:21 am Reply with quote
^ The red glowing eyes? And wasn't that aspect of the Death Note included in the recent tv series? And what good is even having a Death Note if hardly anyone except really bad people use it? If those users would have gone on to do evil on their own, they wouldn't need a death note to accomplish it. And eating potato chips? Is that your best defense? Plus, I didn't say Light didn't have the capacity for evil, I just don't think he had it much more than anyone else. If Light just wanted to kill random people, he would have done that from the start. But he didn't and then when he temporarily relinquished the Death Note, he seemed more like an ordinary kid. Yes, he did admit that he could be Kira but he didn't act like he had been; I don't think he actively tried to stop the investigation. He even allowed himself to be put in isolation. If he was that obsessed with having that kind of power even without the Death Note, don't you think he would have actively tried to help Kira during that time? And remember during that time he has no memory of the Death Note or being Kira.
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jl07045



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:02 am Reply with quote
When Light relinquished dn magic amnesia somehow made him even more ordinary and benevolent than he was before even getting it, which to me just stinks of the writer trying to make Light more sympathetic. This doesn't make the theory that dn exerts some will over Light preferable over Light gradually realizing what he can do and get away with using the book.
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:08 am Reply with quote
One more important thing that I believe no one else mentioned, Light was successful because he had followers. Not only that he lives in a modern age of mass social communication. Remember all those online groups that worshiped Kira and even sent him requests to kill certain people? And even that church were Light discovered Mikami? Mikami proved to be as bad as Light, if not worse, yet he had managed to become a fairly normal and successful person, albeit maybe a bit antisocial. He was not a criminal though he definitely had the capacity for evil, as well. Not only that, but like Light's father, he worked for the legal system. And what about that newscaster lady? She too willingly did Light's bidding. Yet, she seemed like a normal person and had never actually committed any crimes. Are these people any less culpable or less evil than Light?
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:19 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
When Light relinquished dn magic amnesia somehow made him even more ordinary and benevolent than he was before even getting it, which to me just stinks of the writer trying to make Light more sympathetic. This doesn't make the theory that dn exerts some will over Light preferable over Light gradually realizing what he can do and get away with using the book.


So the writer tried to make us feel false sympathy for Light? Or maybe he genuinely thought of Light as not particularly exceptional when it came to being evil. And the writer himself has refused to take sides on the issue. Why? Because he wants us to debate this, to ponder the capacity for evil, not just in others, but ourselves. And to emphasize the importance of not seeing everything through the lens of a rigid black-and -white ideology like Light did. He wants us to think and not commit to any concrete answers. That's why this debate is irritating to me. I probably shouldn't have bothered since I'm well aware of how such debates like this go on ANN. But the one-sideness of it was driving me crazy. It seems like everyone agrees with the author; not only was Light the bad guy but he was extremely evil from the very start, even before picking up the Death Note. And anyone who dares deviate from this position, even slightly is quickly shut down.
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jl07045



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:58 am Reply with quote
It's not about black-and-white ideology. Death Note simply does not provide an ethical dilemma. If it wanted to go for Utilitarianism, even Urobuchi does that better. If it wanted to go for capacity for Evil, good intentions etc. best not portray the study case as a total sociopath, death note or no. It it wants to make a case for justice through Evil acts, it sure as hell doesn't provide us with any worthwhile exploration of what justice might be.
In fact I'd say its only goal is to be a thriller, which it does accomplish well enough.
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:51 am Reply with quote
So you want a definitive idea of what justice should be but Death Note didn't deliver, is that it? I don't think that was the story's intention. If just showed what could happen if someone tried to impose their own brand of justice on society. A very common kind of wish fulfillment for a lot of people and proved that that's not the best way. But it's not like the actual legal system itself is perfect, either. Someone mentioned earlier that Japan's high conviction rate is a result of police coercion, not the result of true confessions. And even the American legal system has it's problems. There is no perfect justice system because we live in an imperfect world. But we should try to make it better, however it will never be perfect. Which is why Light failed because he himself was a flawed individual who was supported by others, who wanted to believe in his brand of justice.
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DuelGundam2099



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:14 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Dr. Hare's Psychopathy Checklist

I just noticed that most if not all of the things would also apply to Deadpool, maybe Venom to a lesser degree, both are characters Marvel has claimed are anti-heroes. Perhaps having such similar characters proclaimed as anti-heroes rather than villains is the reason people such as myself don't see him as a true villain? Maybe when I watch the Rewrite movies I should replace Light's name with Deadpool. Laughing
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:58 pm Reply with quote
residentgrigo wrote:
Misa is an empty inside victim leafy sea dragon. A bit like pre New52 Harley Quinn.


Excactly. She pretty much worships Light because Light gave her meaning, and she's become so dedicated that wherever Light is morally aligned, she'll be there too. As I mentioned, Misa is evil because Light is evil, just as she'd be good if Light was good.

Akane the Catgirl wrote:
That argument makes no sense to me. By that logic, I should not criticize PETA because they're just trying to save the poor widdle animals, just as Light is trying to save the poor widdle bystanders. PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) is an animal rights organization that almost nobody takes seriously due to how their publicity stunts repeatedly undermine any message they want to tell. That is to say that they do such benevolent things such as desecrating the grave of the real life Colonel Sanders, taking a Seeing-Eye dog away from their owner, and euthanzing most of the animals they rescue under pretense that "it would be better that way".


PETA was the one responsible for making elephants illegal in circuses and, along with the movie Blackfish, terminated Sea World's orca breeding program. They do have a significant amount of power, though it seems to be concentrated on the California coast, as both of those movements began there and spread to the rest of the country.

Of course, for everyone, it is important to distinguish animal rights people from animal welfare people. PETA is the former; the Humane Society and WWF are the latter (with Greenpeace somewhere in between). Animal welfare activists are the people out in Africa trying to stop poachers from poisoning elephants and in Indonesia putting out wildfires designed to eliminate tigers, and they cannot stand being confused with animal rights activists. PETA is too petty and too obsessed with attracting attention to itself to help out with those causes.

rinmackie wrote:
^ The red glowing eyes? And wasn't that aspect of the Death Note included in the recent tv series? And what good is even having a Death Note if hardly anyone except really bad people use it? If those users would have gone on to do evil on their own, they wouldn't need a death note to accomplish it.


Light's red glowing eyes are symbolic. Otherwise, someone would have commented on them already, especially in the last episode/chapters where Light reveals he is Kira to the investigators, and his eyes are red and glowing.

Also, only really bad people (and, in the case of Misa, clueless people) use Death Notes because the only purpose of a Death Note is to kill people from anywhere and in any way the user wants. The only possible use a good person would have for a Death Note is self-defense, and a good person wouldn't want to simply kill everyone who threatens them. A Death Note does not threaten; it terrifies people for life.

rinmackie wrote:
One more important thing that I believe no one else mentioned, Light was successful because he had followers. Not only that he lives in a modern age of mass social communication. Remember all those online groups that worshiped Kira and even sent him requests to kill certain people? And even that church were Light discovered Mikami? Mikami proved to be as bad as Light, if not worse, yet he had managed to become a fairly normal and successful person, albeit maybe a bit antisocial. He was not a criminal though he definitely had the capacity for evil, as well. Not only that, but like Light's father, he worked for the legal system. And what about that newscaster lady? She too willingly did Light's bidding. Yet, she seemed like a normal person and had never actually committed any crimes. Are these people any less culpable or less evil than Light?


How many evil or extremist people do you think live in your town that you have no idea are evil because they haven't actually done any evil or extremist deeds in public?

It's not like evil people are mustache-twirlers who spend their days plotting the next evil thing they want to do and routinely kill people or blow up buildings. An evil person might not want to draw attention to themselves. Or in the case of Mikami, is unable to do evil because he is physically weak. That Death Note was the first weapon he had ever possessed.

Evil people only do evil when they gain some degree of power, and power taps into the evil within people, whether it's small or dormant or what have you. A Death Note is exactly that power.
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Akane the Catgirl



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:12 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
That argument makes no sense to me. By that logic, I should not criticize PETA because they're just trying to save the poor widdle animals, just as Light is trying to save the poor widdle bystanders. PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) is an animal rights organization that almost nobody takes seriously due to how their publicity stunts repeatedly undermine any message they want to tell. That is to say that they do such benevolent things such as desecrating the grave of the real life Colonel Sanders, taking a Seeing-Eye dog away from their owner, and euthanzing most of the animals they rescue under pretense that "it would be better that way".


PETA was the one responsible for making elephants illegal in circuses and, along with the movie Blackfish, terminated Sea World's orca breeding program. They do have a significant amount of power, though it seems to be concentrated on the California coast, as both of those movements began there and spread to the rest of the country.

Of course, for everyone, it is important to distinguish animal rights people from animal welfare people. PETA is the former; the Humane Society and WWF are the latter (with Greenpeace somewhere in between). Animal welfare activists are the people out in Africa trying to stop poachers from poisoning elephants and in Indonesia putting out wildfires designed to eliminate tigers, and they cannot stand being confused with animal rights activists. PETA is too petty and too obsessed with attracting attention to itself to help out with those causes.


Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Though let's be honest; people remember PETA because of the stupid s**t they pull on a regular basis. Same with the Death Note fandom, and as someone who's had firsthand experience dealing with some of the more insane members, I can assure you their terrible reputation has been earned. They're pretty much up there with the Sonic the Hedgehog fandom and Bronies as some of the worst fanbases in geek history. Then again, that's what happens when you get a big enough following; you're inevitabily going to attract a whole bunch of crazy people. As someone who's hoping to make it big as a content creator, I dread the inevitability of having awful fans. -_-
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, as yousaid, every fandom, if large enough, will appear insane and obnoxious once you dive deep enough into them. It doesn't matter what it's for.

I would say the Sonic fans have the edge though, because of these fandoms, the Sonic fandom is the only one to have adversely affected sales of the thing they're a fan of. Or maybe it's simply because SEGA listens to its fans too much, whereas Death Note has long ended and DHX just ignores the hate.

If you take a look though, all three of these franchises appeal well to angsty teenage and young adult males, albeit in very different ways. I believe that the fanbases' bad reputations stem from that angstiness. (That being said, Sonic fans and bronies do not pull criminal acts quite as often as Death Note fans do. I also believe that in all of these fandoms, at least 95% of fans are normal people, with only a few messed up people ruining it for everyone else. They just look like a lot because they're loud and congregate together.)

It'll be interesting to see if any of them mellow out as the years go on though. The Star Trek fandom used to have this reputation too, as did Doctor Who, Pokémon, The Beatles, and Harry Potter. But for all of them, their core fanbases grew up, became adults, and stopped acting whiny and antisocial. The Death Note fandom, to me, is unusual in that it's remained that way several years after it's ended, but I think that's because Death Note has gained a timeless classic status and it's constantly getting a large supply of angsty youth consuming it for the first time.

I mean, even stuff that appeals well to angsty youth will get mellowed-out fanbases once they grow old enough. Look at AC/DC, Spawn, South Park, and Evangelion. Hence, I am certain it's a matter of age.
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:03 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

PETA was the one responsible for making elephants illegal in circuses and, along with the movie Blackfish, terminated Sea World's orca breeding program. They do have a significant amount of power, though it seems to be concentrated on the California coast, as both of those movements began there and spread to the rest of the country.


Funny that PETA was brought up in a discussion about Light. In a way though it is the perfect accompaniment. While PETA has done good things as mentioned above, and they are known for going to extremes to show their message; they also believe they are the only ones who has the right to kill animals, like cats and dogs. PETA was caught harvesting cats and dogs from shelters and others around North Carolina and Virginia, while promising that they found find homes for those pets. PETA was actually killing those cats and dogs in the same van they used to pick them up. Government only found out about it when it was discovered that PETA employees were illegally dumping the dead bodies in various city dumpsters.

While there is a possibility that Light and Misa wouldn't have committed any evil acts, if they did not have the Death Note. There is nothing to say that they wouldn't have acted that way, if the opportunity and chance of success had presented itself in other ways. How many 'good' people would commit heinous crimes if they knew beyond a doubt they could get away with it. I believe quite a bit. We can only judge Light and Misa by what they actually did, not by what could have been.
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russ869



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:46 pm Reply with quote
I went into this article expecting to hate reading it. Particularly since I've often thought ever since I first read Death Note (before the anime or live action versions existed) that if I were presented with a supernatual means of killing people, I would use it is almost exactly the same way that Light does. To kill criminals. A lot of people are saying the only right thing to do with a Death Note is not use it. Not using it is not an option.

I've frequently puzzled over the reason why the majority of Death Note fans were cheering for L to win when even though he is essentially the "good guy" he is definitely the antagonist. Many of the reasons these people cited for being "on L's side" were essentially emotional and not based in rational argument. So I've kind of chalked it up to the idea that a person's reaction to the characters of Death Note reveals something about themself. If in our world there are "normal people" and there are "psychopaths" (or the criminally asymptomatic, if you will) then the fact that I agree on some level with Light's cause and methods (someone has to do what must be done regardless of whether it should be done) means I am a psychopath in some capacity. Whereas the majority of people find Light repulsive because they have to. Because that is what's expected of them by society and by their own morality/emotions.

So I expected to hate reading this... But this was actually a very insightful article. Hope is completely right that "vigilantism is about control." It's about a power fantasy. Anyone who's ever fantasized about beating or killing a mugger on the street Charles Bronson style (which judging by the popularity of the Death Wish movies is a lot of people) can relate to that visceral desire to eliminate evil with their own hands.

Quote:
How easy is it for third party hackers to manipulate online information to get rid of their own personal enemies?

Makes me think of Hell Girl.

Quote:
See, it's speculated (but never confirmed) by Ryuk that the Death Note could have a corruptible influence on mortals who try it out.

In the story arc where Light loses his memories of the notebook and becomes a much nicer, morally-driven, law abiding person, Tsugumi Ohba does seem to be making the argument that Light was an ordinary guy corrupted by power. But yeah... nobody goes that crazy just because they were presented with a way they can get away with murder. Like Walter White, Light was a ticking time bomb ready to go berserk at any moment even before he encountered the notebook ("I'm going to become a drug dealer!" is not a normal response to getting cancer.).

Quote:
Light was wrong about the world. He wasn't wrong about people longing for some omnipotent force to punish wicked and reward good in the world, maybe even through drastic methods, but he was wrong about being accepted as that God himself.

This is also precisely correct. In order for Light's goal to come about most effectively, it was essential that the "god" who was judging criminals remain a shadowy, faceless force. He didn't understand that and wanted glory for himself. The minute people understand that Kira isn't some universal law of karma but actually a human being with a magic notebook, all of the fear started by the punishment of criminal kind of crumbles.
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:47 pm Reply with quote
So Light had to been evil the whole time because good people can never be corrupted? Really? So I guess that means people are born either good or evil and free will does not exist. Good people can be corrupted, happens all the time. I believe that's why good intentions pave the way to hell is a saying. You can have good intentions and mean well, and still end up doing the wrong thing. Without even realizing it, until it's too late. Hardly anyone wakes up in the morning and decides to be evil. And it seems to me that the people who the most convinced that they are "good" turn out not to be not so good after all.

While it's true, there's lots of not-so-nice people out there and yes I know most villains aren't "mustache-twilling evil". I actually hate those kind of characters. But not all psycho/sociopaths grow up to be criminal masterminds and serial killers. A lot of them end up as politicians and successful business people. Or they join the police force. According to my husband, almost every bully at his school grew up to be policemen. Not saying that everyone in law enforcement is a bully but that profession tends to attract that kind of person. Plus a lot of teenagers are like Light but most mature and become better people. For all we know Light's dad was like him at the same age but instead of finding a Death Note, he grew up and became the nice guy he seemed to be in the show. And once again, the Death Note is a supernatural weapon so why couldn't it have a corrupting influence?
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