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CCTakato
Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 514
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:04 am
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PurpleWarrior13 wrote: |
1. It's clear the series was not making it's way over here any other way. |
Ok. but why? Dragon Ball Kai and Naruto made it over here on American TV with minimal edits and no Americanization and they're like the biggest anime titles around. If they can succeed this way, why can't a show like Pretty Cure?
Quote: | 2. The series is obviously for children, and it makes sense to do all you can to market it to them. |
So is Dora the Explorer yet I don't see American kids being too confused by a kid's cartoon that has Hispanic cultural themes and foreign names in it.
Quote: | 3. The title "Pretty Cure" is a bit strange and awkward anyway. |
And Phineas and Ferb isn't a weird name?
Quote: | 4. Saban's dubs are usually done with Studiopolis now, and usually turn out fine, voice acting-wise. |
Ok, but that says nothing about how Americanized the show is going to be or that apparently they're skipping eight episodes of the show for no reason.
Quote: | I won't watch, but I don't really see how this is a bad thing. |
How about a lack of an official subtitled version for the already established fan base that's been in America for years now?
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CCTakato
Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 514
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:17 am
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I just don't understand the way the anime industry thinks sometimes. They complain all the time about people downloading fansubs instead of supporting official releases. Then they go and take a show like this, completely Americanize the concept, make lots of pointless edits like skipping episodes, then they don't put out an official subtitled release for the fans who are actually old enough to spend money on the show, then they complain about why didn't anyone support the official release of it. It's happened time and again to magical girls like Tokyo Mew Mew and even Sailor Moon originally bombed when it first aired on syndicated TV in the U.S. its most severely edited DiC format. I'm not a huge fan of Pretty Cure. I only watched the original show and it was entertaining enough but I'm not a diehard fan or anything. But it does seem to me like a double standard that the American anime industry always seems to treat magical girl anime in this horrible way that they would almost never treat a shonen action anime that way and then magical girl fans have to wait years to get a proper uncut release and sometimes even that never actually happens.
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NJ_
Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 3065
Location: Wallington, NJ
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:42 am
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Levitz9 wrote: | I mean, it's not like Saban isn't doing a good job with Power Rangers: Dino Charge at the moment or anything ridiculous like that. |
Haven't watched Dino Charge past the first episode myself (would rather wait for the DVDs) but if it's still going strong then good. After 4 straight years of crap from Jonathan Tzachor, interest has been pretty low but I had a feeling it would get better because they brought back Judd Lynn for Dino Charge and he was responsible for most of Power Rangers' best seasons.
CCTakato wrote: | It's happened time and again to magical girls like Tokyo Mew Mew and even Sailor Moon originally bombed when it first aired on syndicated TV in the U.S. its most severely edited DiC format. |
There was a good reason for Sailor Moon bombing on syndication and it had less to do with the edits & more because of the time slots it was airing on. Over here it aired every weekday morning at 6:30 on WB11 for a year (from 1995 to 1996 when it was replaced by Dragon Ball Z which also bombed on syndication) and it took a while for me to get used to waking up at that hour to watch & record most of it on VHS tapes because prior to that, I used to wake up at around 7 every morning to get ready for school. I already knew what Sailor Moon was after watching & enjoying the R premiere that aired on Fox Kids one Saturday morning but it took a while to get used to watching the rest of that dub and from what I had heard, it aired on worse time slots in other states which also explains why it bombed plus it didn't help that DiC had the show aired out of order during it's premiere run in each of them (first half of Negamoon arc BEFORE Doom Tree).
It did very well in Canada though and I heard was one of YTV's most popular shows which sorta upsets me that it was the opposite for the first Pretty Cure dub when it aired on there years later.
Last edited by NJ_ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15434
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:16 am
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CCTakato: If the Toei people were smarter, they could've thrown in with Anime Sols and crowdfunded uncut box sets of the show when they had the chance.
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LostCause126
Joined: 11 Oct 2014
Posts: 9
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:11 am
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tezumori wrote: | It has NOTHING to do with English names and it isn't just that. It's Saban's history of creating poor adaptations of every show he gets. And you're going to ban someone because they rightfully whine that he's still getting away with this piss poor strategy? You don't have to know anything about it because he STILL does this with Digimon even today.
This is what he does when he gets his hands on any show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdES97hzrd4 |
Try having to suspend someone from a wiki for ranting about how they will go to any lengths necessary to purge any mention of anything to do from the dub from said wiki in order to preserve the "purity" of the Japanese stuff.
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UtsuhoReiuji
Joined: 30 Apr 2015
Posts: 20
Location: only real world location, please
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:30 am
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Saban can't write for shit imo. So on top of rampant xenophobic americanization because of Saban's "HURR DURR MURICAN KIDS DON'T KNOW ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES HURR DURR" mentality, which is honestly pathetic even in 2015, we'll have shit characterization, cheesy as fudge plots and numerous plotholes.
I'm not a Precure fan, but if I had a young daughter, I certainly wouldn't let her watched a dumbed down and badly written show. Saban doesn't seem to realise that there are plenty of shows out there marketed towards young children that actually DON'T dumb things down and actually treat their audience with respect.
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Aster Selene
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 68
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:27 am
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animefanworried wrote: | But no! Digimon's first 4 seasons were edited, but they were still Digimon and were successful. Then season 5 and 6 got butchered beyond recognition; how did that work out? |
The fifth series was dubbed by Disney and Bandai USA rather than Saban and it's arguably one of the closest dubs to the original (as is the fourth, which was also Disney). Saban Entertainment handled the first two and a half, which had far more edits; Saban Brands (the current company as it is now) did only the sixth, a dub that is consistent with the complaints about unnecessary script changes and content censorship expressed in the thread. The declining popularity of the series was due to factors unrelated to dubbing.
PurpleWarrior13 wrote: | 4. Saban's dubs are usually done with Studiopolis now, and usually turn out fine, voice acting-wise. |
Voice acting is only one part of a dub; most of the complaints here are about what might be done to the script, as per the company's poor track record.
Re: the other complaints about "it's not like the kids will know anything anyway", I'm not as concerned about the "effect" as I am about the "cause". Sure, kids may not know better and if Saban manages to advertise it decently (which even that I'm leery about), it may become popular, which is better than nothing. But I just can't help but wonder why this attitude is still necessary when other countries are capable of being far more respectful to source material and still having the content be successful. It perpetuates a kind of mentality about what American kids have to have and it leads to other dubs continuing to do this when we should be far past this in this day and age. I highly doubt its marketability would be significantly impacted by not doing this.
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Break Xerxes
Joined: 16 Dec 2014
Posts: 223
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:43 am
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UtsuhoReiuji wrote: | Saban can't write for shit imo. So on top of rampant xenophobic americanization because of Saban's "HURR DURR MURICAN KIDS DON'T KNOW ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES HURR DURR" mentality, which is honestly pathetic even in 2015, we'll have shit characterization, cheesy as fudge plots and numerous plotholes.
I'm not a Precure fan, but if I had a young daughter, I certainly wouldn't let her watched a dumbed down and badly written show. Saban doesn't seem to realise that there are plenty of shows out there marketed towards young children that actually DON'T dumb things down and actually treat their audience with respect. |
This. There is no reason to whitewash the cast and change the setting. Nor is there any reason to dumb down the plot and heavily edit the dialogue, resulting in plot holes. I hate when people do stuff like and believe its fine because its a kids show. Kids aren't stupid.
I'm a huge fan of Precure and if they release the original Japanese version over here on DVD and blu ray I would buy it on day one.
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CCTakato
Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 514
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:49 pm
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NJ_ wrote: |
There was a good reason for Sailor Moon bombing on syndication and it had less to do with the edits & more because of the time slots it was airing on. Over here it aired every weekday morning at 6:30 on WB11 for a year (from 1995 to 1996 when it was replaced by Dragon Ball Z which also bombed on syndication) and it took a while for me to get used to waking up at that hour to watch & record most of it on VHS tapes because prior to that, I used to wake up at around 7 every morning to get ready for school. I already knew what Sailor Moon was after watching & enjoying the R premiere that aired on Fox Kids one Saturday morning but it took a while to get used to watching the rest of that dub and from what I had heard, it aired on worse time slots in other states which also explains why it bombed plus it didn't help that DiC had the show aired out of order during it's premiere run in each of them (first half of Negamoon arc BEFORE Doom Tree).
It did very well in Canada though and I heard was one of YTV's most popular shows which sorta upsets me that it was the opposite for the first Pretty Cure dub when it aired on there years later. |
Ok, but that's kind of my point. People defending this decision have been arguing the only way a magical girl show can succeed in America is if they heavily edit the thing to death and rewrite it to appeal to white kids (never mind that white kids by most predictions are probably going to be the minority in America in a few years down the road). Yet we have shows like Tokyo Mew Mew and Doremi that were heavily edited and Americanized to appeal to that supposedly broad white kid fanbase and yet both shows failed in the U.S. and ended up getting canceled before they even really finished. Sailor Moon is the only magical girl show to really become a huge mainstream smash hit on American TV and not because it was butchered to death but because Cartoon Network put it on a pretty good timeslot where people could actually watch it and more fans had access to the Internet then to find out about the Japanese version and all the changes DiC made. In contrast, Tokyo Mew Mew aired on Saturday mornings at 8:00 a.m. with barely any promotion at all which probably contributed to why the anime bombed in America yet the manga is still pretty well known over here. But like can you imagine Saban picking up a show like Ushio and Tora and rewriting and editing it for an American kid's audience and calling it something like Spirit Hunter Force, changing all the names, and skipping ten episodes? And then can you imagine the fans saying "Oh well it's just a show for little boys who like action so of course it had to be that way." No one would say that yet for some reason this is the mentality people have when it comes to anime shows for young girls and I don't know why and it's frustrating and disappointing to see anime fans making it in the year 2015.
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Gundamu
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 6
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:20 pm
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Kimiko_0 wrote: | Not only is the episode count reduced from 48 to 40, the running time is reduced from 24 min. to 22 min. too. Unless they cut the OP and ED down to about half a minute each, they'll be cutting into the content of the remaining 40 episodes as well.
Smile Precure's main characters were in second grade, so 13-14 years old. This listing has them as "preteen" girls. Meaning more than just the anime's name will be changed. |
Uhh..No. They were young teens, even in the original.
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Primus
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 2794
Location: Toronto
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:22 pm
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CCTakato wrote: | I just don't understand the way the anime industry thinks sometimes. They complain all the time about people downloading fansubs instead of supporting official releases. Then they go and take a show like this, completely Americanize the concept, make lots of pointless edits like skipping episodes, then they don't put out an official subtitled release for the fans who are actually old enough to spend money on the show, then they complain about why didn't anyone support the official release of it. It's happened time and again to magical girls like Tokyo Mew Mew and even Sailor Moon originally bombed when it first aired on syndicated TV in the U.S. its most severely edited DiC format. I'm not a huge fan of Pretty Cure. I only watched the original show and it was entertaining enough but I'm not a diehard fan or anything. But it does seem to me like a double standard that the American anime industry always seems to treat magical girl anime in this horrible way that they would almost never treat a shonen action anime that way and then magical girl fans have to wait years to get a proper uncut release and sometimes even that never actually happens. |
The problem here is the assumption that DiC, 4Kids and Saban Brands were/are part of the R1 anime industry; for the most part, they're not. They're all kids media companies looking for the next huge merchandise phenomenon. Unlike a Funimation or some other R1 distributor, their #1 goal for a show isn't to sell DVDs/BDs, it's to sell the show to broadcasters and licensees (toys, games, clothes, books, home video, etc.) worldwide. Their target audience doesn't watch fansubs and has never heard of the Japanese version. The shows are heavily localized in an attempt to get them on TV and not appear weird to the kids they're going after.
Pretty Cure is a 22-minute toy commercial, and I can assure you that any treatment it gets is something a shonen-22 minute toy commercial has likely faced before. Last year's dub of LBX by Dentsu not only saw random name changes, a new title and soundtrack, it got 44-episodes edited down to 26. Saban's Digimon Fusion dub is pretty shitty as well, though no where near as severe as what I just listed. This isn't some grand conspiracy against magical girl shows.
The reason most magical girls shows don't get uncut releases (most heavily localized 22-minute toy commercials don't get uncut releases in general) is because they're not popular enough to warrant that. Most can't even support a dub sold to broadcasters globally, let alone a niche product for North America. That's why the R1 anime industry (Funimation, Viz, Sentai, etc.) has looked at Pretty Cure over the last 10 years and kept saying no.
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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5901
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:44 pm
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Nobody is really saying that anime fans wouldn't buy this in an uncensored version, but rather the entities who bought the license for this show don't care about anime fans. Their market is for children. That is who they only care about. Thus they can't release it uncensored. It will be edited for content and dumbed down to the level American kids are supposed to be accepting of it.
I won't be all doom and gloom, it still may be enjoyable. We really will not know how much is going to be changed. And there is always the fansubs.
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CCTakato
Joined: 24 Jul 2015
Posts: 514
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:43 pm
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Primus wrote: |
Pretty Cure is a 22-minute toy commercial, and I can assure you that any treatment it gets is something a shonen-22 minute toy commercial has likely faced before. Last year's dub of LBX by Dentsu not only saw random name changes, a new title and soundtrack, it got 44-episodes edited down to 26. Saban's Digimon Fusion dub is pretty shitty as well, though no where near as severe as what I just listed. This isn't some grand conspiracy against magical girl shows. |
This isn't about it being a grand conspiracy against magical girl shows. This is about how there's been a long documented bias against magical girl anime in the U.S. where magical girl shows tend to be dismissed as a little kiddy fair to sell Barbie dolls while shonen action shows like Naruto and One Piece are regarded as legit forms of entertainment to be consumed by anime fans even though they're both aimed at little kids. Why do you think Nelvana had to rebrand Cardcaptor Sakura as a boys' show to cash in on the Pokemon craze in America? Yet we have seen that when magical girl shows like Sailor Moon are allowed to thrive and be true to their original, they can succeed. And in spite of all the controversies over the video quality, the Viz Sailor Moon BDs have been selling like hot cakes and Viz reported it as their highest selling title ever and it's like the only anime I ever see in Walmart these days even though it's now being released uncut. Sailor Moon is probably the biggest now than it's ever been in America. Kids today are more connected to the Internet and the global geekdom scene than ever before. Especially with the fansubs easily accessible, how long do you think it will take kids to Google Glitter Force online, find out about all the changes Saban made to the dub, decide it was a horrible adaptation, and decide to stick to the fansubs instead of supporting the official release? And then when it doesn't succeed in America, do you think Saban will blame it on their poor dubbing quality rather than blame it on magical girls just being inherently not wanted in America or something? And then we're right back to where we were and the cycle will only continue. Of course I may also be biased against Saban because I find Haim Saban to be a generally horrible person but that's neither here nor there.
Quote: | The reason most magical girls shows don't get uncut releases (most heavily localized 22-minute toy commercials don't get uncut releases in general) is because they're not popular enough to warrant that. Most can't even support a dub sold to broadcasters globally, let alone a niche product for North America. That's why the R1 anime industry (Funimation, Viz, Sentai, etc.) has looked at Pretty Cure over the last 10 years and kept saying no. |
It just seems like a catch-22 to me to argue the reason why magical girl shows don't get uncut releases is because they're not popular enough in America to get them yet one of the reasons why they're not popular enough is because the shows are so horribly butchered no one wants to watch them.
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Morning Blue
Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 62
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:37 pm
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DmonHiro wrote: | Set, this is hardly the same. It's one thing to change some things when you adapt to a different medium. What Saban wants to do is to take that novel, rip out 10% of the pages and then sell it to you. |
High five, man. (And to you too, CCTakato. I'd quote you if it wouldn't break the rules.)
I thought we were over this senseless butchering of anime in this day and age of crunchyroll, FUNimation, Netflix, and even Viz's Neon Alley allowing us to see anime uncut and (mostly) uncensored than ever before. But then I remember Doraemon's dub and TMS' claim that the dub takes place in an alternate American version of the show and then I just place my hand on my face and sigh.
sakuramusicstar wrote: | As for you people whining about how American has butchered another anime, do you ever stop to think that how Saban and other companies only care about their target audience than you? This has been done for YEARS with animes such as Sailor Moon, Digimon, Samurai Pizza Cats, and any other anime that has come through Saban or any other company that has done the same thing. |
The difference was that most of those dubs were done in the late 1990's, when anime was costly and hard to come by in North America. In 2015 Saban and other dub companies should know better by now.
Also, we COULD blame Toei for this (they did approve of every single dumb decision 4Kids made for One Piece while adding their own practices that hampered it more), but Saban I feel is just as much to blame. He doesn't want to make Glitter Force to give a show for kids to watch. He's making it to sell toys, not caring for the once cute, clever, funny show it is. It's the same reason Power Rangers refuses to die.
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TarsTarkas
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5901
Location: Virginia, United States
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:26 pm
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Don't know why this is so hard to understand. Saban is not an anime company. So they don't care what we think. They don't follow anime distribution history lessons. They want the kiddies, not the fans.
Yeah, we all don't like it, but Saban could care less what we think. Because they are not part of the anime industry.
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