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enurtsol
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14853
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:33 pm
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SynergyMan wrote: |
Secondly, as I have said before, those who lack experience in a field will suffer. I would not like to see anime VAs on my TV, because that is not their field. They would suck as live action characters. |
SynergyMan wrote: |
This goes for animation. |
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Jayhosh
Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 972
Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:47 pm
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SynergyMan wrote: | Lucy Liu's first dub* huh? It doesn't matter. The chances of her being bad in this is 100%. Live action actors are never good in animation, let alone anime. Can somebody give a legitimate reason why they don't use anime VAs?
*Afro Samurai Resurrection was not a dub, BTW. |
That is complete and utter bullshit. Robin Williams in Aladdin is just one of the many actors that would like to have a word with you. I'll give you a reason why they don't use anime VA's. Because a tone of 'em SUCK. Yes, over emoting and heavy breathing isn't what I would consider good acting. Mark Hamill as the Joker and Muska in Castle in the Sky, now THAT'S good acting in animation.
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Jayhosh
Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 972
Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:53 pm
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SynergyMan wrote: | I don't understand how my point is controversial. It's only similar to Japanese fans. They don't like this crap in Ghibli movies. They consider the acting to be flat, lifeless, dull and lacking due to the fact Miyazaki and his crew have a stupid hatred towards actual seiyuu and refuse to use them relative to horrible live action actors. Like in Howl. Only one voice actor was used. Akio Otsuka. That's the best performance in that film, for obvious reasons. So when Disney/G-Kids emulate that, you get the same effect. Good live action actors who don't get it. Asking for anime/animation VAs is not something I should beg for. It should be something I expect. Not only would it be better, but it saves time and money. They wouldn't even have to pay them scale. They would be paid standard union dubbing rates of $62.50-$75 per hour and maybe scale if they feel like it. According to JTurner's video, the Princess Mononoke dub had a massive production cost. What's the point of a shit load of money for a meh dub? Is what I'm saying out of the ordinary? |
Japanese viewers think nothing like that. Stop making stuff up. On the contrary, a lot of Japanese Ghibli fans PREFER the English dubs. Hell, even Miyazaki himself enjoys them more and believes that English speakers should watch them instead because it's their native language. The guy has said it in multiple official interviews. Your point is controversial because it doesn't make any sense. Many live action actors also do animation, so why is anime supposed to be any different? It has never been the standard for the other way around, where voice actors work in live action, so that point is ridiculous. These are talented people in these dubs, don't discredit them so completely. And the Mononoke dub was great.
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Jayhosh
Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 972
Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:57 pm
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koinosuke wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: | Lucy Liu's first dub* huh? It doesn't matter. The chances of her being bad in this is 100%. Live action actors are never good in animation, let alone anime. Can somebody give a legitimate reason why they don't use anime VAs?
*Afro Samurai Resurrection was not a dub, BTW. |
Disney's Ghibli dubs are in large part some of the best English dubs of anime out there (with a few glaring exceptions like Castle in the Sky and Arrietty). Stop talking out of your ass. |
Agreed, but I thought that the Castle in the Sky dub was great! I know a lot of people complain about the two leads' VA's (even though I found them to be just fine, despite sounding older than they should have), but Chloris Leachman (probably not spelling that right) and Mark Hamill more than made up for that. They voiced their roles brilliantly. And I didn't find the Arrietty dub to be bad either. Although I did prefer the UK version.
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supersqueak
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 194
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:27 am
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Eww who would cast Darren Criss in anything? I love Chloe Grace Moretz though she is adorable.
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SynergyMan
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Posts: 99
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:31 am
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Jayhosh wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: | Lucy Liu's first dub* huh? It doesn't matter. The chances of her being bad in this is 100%. Live action actors are never good in animation, let alone anime. Can somebody give a legitimate reason why they don't use anime VAs?
*Afro Samurai Resurrection was not a dub, BTW. |
That is complete and utter bullshit. Robin Williams in Aladdin is just one of the many actors that would like to have a word with you. I'll give you a reason why they don't use anime VA's. Because a tone of 'em SUCK. Yes, over emoting and heavy breathing isn't what I would consider good acting. Mark Hamill as the Joker and Muska in Castle in the Sky, now THAT'S good acting in animation. |
As opposed to doing their normal voice with nothing behind it? If you're talking about JP VAs, they may overact but a lot of them CAN voice act. If you're talking about ENG anime VAs, a lot of them actually dial it down relative to the JP version, but again, they can voice act. Contrast this with Takuya Kimura. Can't voice act. His voice is bland and he puts nothing behind Howl. Bale isn't better either. He sounds like Batman when Howl shows his true form, which doesn't fit the character. Also, Mark Hamill is an actual VA. Since the 70s, he's being doing VA work. He just happened to be famous for a live action role, though his voice work precedes him, so he doesn't count. Also, Yamadera was better as Genie.
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SynergyMan
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Posts: 99
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:31 am
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enurtsol wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: |
Secondly, as I have said before, those who lack experience in a field will suffer. I would not like to see anime VAs on my TV, because that is not their field. They would suck as live action characters. |
SynergyMan wrote: |
This goes for animation. |
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Who's she?
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SynergyMan
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Posts: 99
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:38 am
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Jayhosh wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: | I don't understand how my point is controversial. It's only similar to Japanese fans. They don't like this crap in Ghibli movies. They consider the acting to be flat, lifeless, dull and lacking due to the fact Miyazaki and his crew have a stupid hatred towards actual seiyuu and refuse to use them relative to horrible live action actors. Like in Howl. Only one voice actor was used. Akio Otsuka. That's the best performance in that film, for obvious reasons. So when Disney/G-Kids emulate that, you get the same effect. Good live action actors who don't get it. Asking for anime/animation VAs is not something I should beg for. It should be something I expect. Not only would it be better, but it saves time and money. They wouldn't even have to pay them scale. They would be paid standard union dubbing rates of $62.50-$75 per hour and maybe scale if they feel like it. According to JTurner's video, the Princess Mononoke dub had a massive production cost. What's the point of a shit load of money for a meh dub? Is what I'm saying out of the ordinary? |
Japanese viewers think nothing like that. Stop making stuff up. On the contrary, a lot of Japanese Ghibli fans PREFER the English dubs. Hell, even Miyazaki himself enjoys them more and believes that English speakers should watch them instead because it's their native language. The guy has said it in multiple official interviews. Your point is controversial because it doesn't make any sense. Many live action actors also do animation, so why is anime supposed to be any different? It has never been the standard for the other way around, where voice actors work in live action, so that point is ridiculous. These are talented people in these dubs, don't discredit them so completely. And the Mononoke dub was great. |
I never said that. I said that the Japanese think that Miyazaki's Japanese casting choices are bad. I'm well aware how popular the dubs are in Japan. There's a whole Twitter page by a Japanese Ghibli bot about that, though even my JP friends who are fluent in English said that the dubs should use actual VAs.
Also, about your, "Many live action actors also do animation, so why is anime supposed to be any different?" you have to realize that many do NOT make a career out of acting in animation, let alone anime. This is simply because anime is not enough to pay the bills, though not even non Fox pre-lay work is lucrative enough for live action actors. Also anime isn't like American cartoons. There are plenty of anime that are more emotional than most American shows and need VAs capable of delivering that emotion rather than "VAs" who just do their voice.
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enurtsol
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14853
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:28 pm
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SynergyMan wrote: |
enurtsol wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: |
Secondly, as I have said before, those who lack experience in a field will suffer. I would not like to see anime VAs on my TV, because that is not their field. They would suck as live action characters. |
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Who's she? |
Click on the picture.
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Cptn_Taylor
Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:34 pm
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SynergyMan wrote: | I don't understand how my point is controversial. It's only similar to Japanese fans. They don't like this crap in Ghibli movies. They consider the acting to be flat, lifeless, dull and lacking due to the fact Miyazaki and his crew have a stupid hatred towards actual seiyuu and refuse to use them relative to horrible live action actors. Like in Howl. Only one voice actor was used. Akio Otsuka. That's the best performance in that film, for obvious reasons. So when Disney/G-Kids emulate that, you get the same effect. Good live action actors who don't get it. Asking for anime/animation VAs is not something I should beg for. It should be something I expect. Not only would it be better, but it saves time and money. They wouldn't even have to pay them scale. They would be paid standard union dubbing rates of $62.50-$75 per hour and maybe scale if they feel like it. According to JTurner's video, the Princess Mononoke dub had a massive production cost. What's the point of a shit load of money for a meh dub? Is what I'm saying out of the ordinary? |
Oh the horror. The poor japanese otakus don't like how Miyazaki chooses the actors for HIS films. Man this sense of entitlement defies human comprenhension. Miyazaki likes natural sounding voices hence the choices he makes. Most anime voice actors are not capable of realistic sounding voices because they are trained to overemphasize the performance. No one in real life speaks like an anime character. Most of Miyazaki's films are naturalistic so he wants characters that talk like real people. And if that shocks the poor poor otakus well to bad for them.
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TurnerJ
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 481
Location: Highland Park, NJ
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:33 pm
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koinosuke wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: | Lucy Liu's first dub* huh? It doesn't matter. The chances of her being bad in this is 100%. Live action actors are never good in animation, let alone anime. Can somebody give a legitimate reason why they don't use anime VAs?
*Afro Samurai Resurrection was not a dub, BTW. |
Disney's Ghibli dubs are in large part some of the best English dubs of anime out there (with a few glaring exceptions like Castle in the Sky and Arrietty). Stop talking out of your ass. |
Like Jayhosh, I personally like the Castle in the Sky dub and consider it an excellent dub overall. It's not perfect; the leads sound too mature and the script is chattier than it should be, but the acting is excellent all around (Mark and Cloris are PERFECT), and the story is still faithful in spirit to the original. Plus Hisaishi's rescore is a treat. I didn't have any problem with James van der Beek or Anna Paquin either; they weren't perfect as Pazu or Sheeta, true, but they were still solid IMO and MILES better than their lifeless '80s English dub counterparts.
Arrietty is a mixed bag. It's not HORRIBLE, but it's not my favorite. It's a good dub overall.
Oddly, The Wind Rises was the only Ghibli dub I didn't care for. JGL was too wooden IMO. Short, Tucci, Hertzog, and Whitman were GREAT though. Again, it wasn't BAD, just average.
Still, IMO, Disney has never produced any bad dubs for Ghibli films, so… why should this be any different?
Also, I liked the Princess Mononoke dub.
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TurnerJ
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 481
Location: Highland Park, NJ
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:15 am
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SynergyMan wrote: |
koinosuke wrote: |
SynergyMan wrote: | Lucy Liu's first dub* huh? It doesn't matter. The chances of her being bad in this is 100%. Live action actors are never good in animation, let alone anime. Can somebody give a legitimate reason why they don't use anime VAs?
*Afro Samurai Resurrection was not a dub, BTW. |
Disney's Ghibli dubs are in large part some of the best English dubs of anime out there (with a few glaring exceptions like Castle in the Sky and Arrietty). Stop talking out of your ass. |
Well, they all have overly liberal scripts. I would prefer if the script was more conservative. An accurate/literal script would mantain Disney's contract. Although visually the dubs are not cut, they have some desensitizing and alteration. E.G The dub of Spirited Away. The English dub has Chihiro speaking, while the Japanese version is ambiguous. That wasn't in the Japanese version, so it heavily altered a scene's tone. That's first thing. |
So you're saying the Disney dubs should all have slavishly accurate, clunky sounding, awkwardly written dialogue that never deviates from the original in exchange for fluent, believable dialogue?
If so, that's just not how it works. The point is that using a slavishly accurate script would actually have the opposite effect. Also some things just don't always translate very well when adapted from one language to another. Like it or not, sometimes lines HAVE to be changed. That's just how it is.
Now yes, some changes may seem controversial, but I really see nothing about any of the dubs of these movies that change anything of the Ghibli movies in any dramatic way. They all tell the same stories, they don't mangle the characters, they don't rename anybody (Shawn in Arrietty was an exception, but I'll let it pass), and any rewrites are done for the purpose of fluent-sounding dialogue. A slavishly accurate script would only cause the dialogue to sound stiff and robotic, and honestly, neither Ghibli nor Disney want that in their dubs.
Case in point: the first dub of Laputa, before Disney came onboard, WAS slavishly accurate all right, but the dialogue sounded clunky, stilted, and choppy, with lots of unnatural sounding lines and awkward sounding takes. Say what you will about Disney's more liberal script for that movie, but aside from the last part of Sheeta's speech, I saw nothing else about the Disney script that was offensive -- the lines are still mostly faithful in spirit to the original while sounding like sincere, believable dialogue.
Also, I can argue the justification for making a change for a plot point that simply wouldn't translate very well in the case of Whisper of the Heart. In that movie, Shizuku has to translate "Country Roads" into Japanese. That would work for a Japanese audience, but for an English audience… what would you really do? Would you have Shizuku try to translate them into English, or do you try to make it reworkable for something the audience can relate to without diminishing the story's meaning? That's a case where being "slavishly accurate" can get one into trouble, especially when presenting this to a wider audience. So the solution was to have Shizuku simply rewrite the lyrics for a graduation alma mater. In my honest opinion, this change does NOTHING to alter the overall impact of the movie. Nothing. It still captures the same idea.
And guess what? Miyazaki isn't offended by any of the changes made to his movies in the scripts. Any such alteration had to be approved by him AND his studio in order for them to go through with it. Approved by him. He doesn't think Disney has destroyed any of his movies, no matter WHAT purists try to proclaim. If he was, he would have said so.
If you still are puzzled by what I'm trying to say, here's a quote from ngamer3k at a post on isugoi.com which has sadly been deleted:
Quote: |
"Translating from Japanese to English for an anime dub is a long and drawn out process that (if the dub is good) is very deliberate where nothing is written, considered, changed without a tremendous amount of thought behind the reasons. And a lot has to be considered.
Literal translations are awkward to act out and sound stale/unnatural. Writing a line that is an appropriate length for the mouth is also a huge challenge. Therefore-- CONCESSIONS ALWAYS have to be made. Something will inevitably be lost in translation, that's just the way it is. If one is going to complain about one line here or there being changed, one must also complain about the multitude of others that have only a few words changed.
The question is not whether things are changed or the not even the amount that is changed-- but do these changes and/or the performances of the Western actors inhibit the enjoyment of the movie? With all the Disney dubs, I can confidently answer "No." If looked at an objective point of view, people should have little trouble agreeing.
Finally...it is unfair to liken new dubs or today's dubs to those pieces of crap released in the past. Disney dubs in particular draw unwarranted criticism for this simply because the company's reputation. Like anything else-- these works need to be judged on their own merits."
-ngamer3k |
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