Forum - View topicOEL manga jumping the shark
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Reno-chan
Posts: 67 |
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I agree that it's hard to say that an entire group of comics has "jumped the shark," especially in this case where the only consistent similarity is Japanese influence. However, I haven't really been inspired to buy any of the OEL series aside from Dramacon and a few too many of the early RSoM winners. I don't think they've really worn out their welcome, but I don't think they've really proven themselves either.
I'm a fan of both manga and western comics, and except for in a few circumstances, I don't think they mix very well. Dramacon is an exception. It captures the feel of a US anime convention very well, and is funny and cute. The art style is wholy appropriate because of the subject matter, and the story doesn't come across as stale or a ripoff of manga. The other exceptions aren't OEL. The works of UDON (Dark Stalkers, Agent X, Street Fighter, Taskmaster, Deadpool, etc.) and Takeshi Miyazawa (Spider-Man loves Mary Jane) both use manga-influenced art in such a way that it suits the story perfectly, and don't resort to too many silly cliches (which seemed forced in a lot of the RSoM entries, and deter me from reading more OEL). If I said anything inflammatory, I'm sorry, I'm in bit of a bad mood right now, and I was trying to post diplomatically, but I have a bit of a grudge against Tokyopop because it seems to release so many inferior titles and has demonstrated poor quality control in the past. I will happily read any comics if they're good, regardless of where they're from, and I have a shelf of western trade paperbacks and graphic novels and a pile of comics to go with my two shelves of manga. |
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jgreen
 Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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I'd just like to note my first post had ONE SENTENCE about terminology, which I then followed with much longer discussion on Viga's original topic at hand. KyuuA4's response to my post misrepresented what I meant in my post, so I explained myself, then it just kind of exploded from there. I've continued to steer back to the main topic. The thread has elements of your "Pointlessly Fussy Debate" but that's hardly the only thing here.
Wow. Just....just wow. mistress_reebi makes good contributions to threads all the time, and you come in here disagreeing with one of her comments (or, more accurately, one admittedly poorly-worded sentence in an otherwise on-the-mark post) and start ordering she be banned? That's a patently ridiculous response, especially from someone who works for the site. Give me a freakin' break.
Funny, i thought it was a completely pleasant discussion until some prick came in here calling the thread "retarded" and "pointless." Oh, wait.... Seriously, if you want this thread to be better, how about you do something constructive, like actually respond to any of the MANY on-topic remarks that I and others have made on the subject? |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Oh for the love of gawd. Thank you! 
Speaking of sushi -- don't trust the ones served at Chinese Food Buffets. 
By the way, the same problem arises when y'try to call something that looks like anime -- anime -- yet it's not anime. Because a non-Japanese made it. |
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mistress_reebi
Posts: 735 Location: Canada |
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I think you misunderstood what I said. I meant that OEL are all writtin outside of Japan, therefore they can't be manga because it was originally made in elsewhere, not because one word is in a different language. Sushi was originally made in Japan, that is why it's call sushi and not raw fish wrap. Manga is called manga because it's from Japan and that's what is it called there. It's like saying let's have foie de gras at a French restaurant. It's from France and that is what it is called there. |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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What do you call Sushi made in a Chinese restaurant in America? Although, California Maki. Now, that's good stuff. |
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mistress_reebi
Posts: 735 Location: Canada |
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Sushi because the dish originated from Japan. I don't see how this is relivant to OEL graphic novels. |
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jgreen
Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Can we stop this? Please? Manga and food are not the same thing. You're comparing apples and carburetors.
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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'cause yer not thinking Parallel. Look. We can MAKE sushi in America. And CALL it sushi. (Yes, some of the ingredients do come from America). Yet we can MAKE manga in America. And not CALL it manga. That's about as simple as I can make it.
I don't know about you. I don't order my sushi from Japan. By the time it gets here, it's spoiled. As for Japanese restaurants -- I've seen some with Mexicans working in the back. Heck, I've eaten some from a Chinese restaurant. Please tell me - that it's authentic sushi.
The thought process is the same. Alright alright. Explain to me why this is manga? manga#2537 |
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jgreen
Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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I can't tell what it's referring to in that encyclopedia entry, but I assume it's this series? If so, the answer's simple.... 1. A manga (at least, according to my definition) is a comic book created by a Japanese author and originally published for a Japanese audience. 2. The X-Men manga, despite being based on American characters, was created by a series of Japanese authors and originally published for a Japanese audience. 3. Therefore, X-Men: The Manga is a manga. |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Point 1. I'm sorry. But the original story creator is still American. Had a Japanese taken the X-Men characters to create his own story - he'd get sued. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_X-Men_comics Interesting what I dig up if I go looking for these things.
I'll hand it this. The artwork is by a Japanese. However, the story is not. So, which is valued more here? |
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jgreen
Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Have you actually READ these comics? Because I have. It's an adaptation of the American X-Men cartoon that ran on TV in the 1990s. Yes, the overall plot is the same, but the script for the comics was adapted by the artists for a Japanese audience....there were changes, and things were left out to make the story work as a manga and to make it more accessable to a Japanese audience. The artists didn't just lift the script from the TV shows, they wrote their own script with the TV show as a template. Honestly, this semantic argument is not something I'm interested in getting into at ALL. As I said in response to Patachu, I made one off-hand comment that I don't agree with the term "OEL manga" and was happy to leave it at that. Can we please concentrate on the main topic of this thread? |
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KyuuA4
Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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True. I get more done taking it into Wiki.
Yes. Some of us use Math-Logic to apply it to the arts. Quite frankly, it's impossible to apply as the scientific classification rules of one medium may or may not apply to another -- regardless of how illogical that is. Because -- I still wonder how the Japanese can make Eurobeat when Eurobeat originally came from Europe. Yet, no one has any qualms about that. Though as far as music is concerned - I don't give a crap what it's called. As long as it sounds good.
Sounds like the similar fashion of Hollywood creating a Godzilla movie. Whatever year that was -- I didn't bother to watch it. I heard it sucked. === Nevertheless. Somewhat trying to get into the original topic. What I generally see around here is -- OEL manga is a derogatory term. This is demonstrated by:
And many more. End Examples
Now, is this "jumping the shark" reference aimed towards equating OEL manga with manga? If have a feeling -- the only people insulted is the American market. Even so. I give major props. to Tokyopop leading the way and encouraging non-Japanese into producing manga or manga-style work. We need more of these - not less.
To answer that question. Think like a business. If many many many people buy manga -- what do you do? Go with the flow of the market. It is up to companies to stay afloat. They don't care what these things are called. They're there to make money. They're businesses. Here's a fact between manga and comics. Manga sells MORE than comics. Want proof? Go to a book store and see which section is larger: manga or comic. I'm betting that the manga section has more books available. |
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mistress_reebi
Posts: 735 Location: Canada |
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Wikipedia is the worst encyclopaedia because it isn't even 100% acturate. Anyone can write about anything on the website. Try difference sources if you want to be acturate.
Are you refering to DDR because that isn't real Eurodance. Again irrelivant to OEL graphic novels [quote="KyuuA4"] Nevertheless. Somewhat trying to get into the original topic. What I generally see around here is -- OEL manga is a derogatory term. This is demonstrated by:
I dont' see how this supports your arugment when they are clearly against OEl graphic novels. Only one person used the form 'OEL manga' and they used quotations because they disagree with the term, hense the quotation marks.
Like my Louis Vuitton knock-off example, you can't call a knock off Louis Vuitton handbag a real one because Louis Vuitton didn't make it. You can't call it manga the Japanese didn't even make it.
I do read comics from other places other than Japan. It's all about the story and art for me. You're just proving our point that companies are presuming anime fans would buy it because they market it as manga. We don't want to buy from companies that are deceiving us into thinking its something when it's not. It's like some guy on the corner trying to sell someone a Louis Vuitton knock-off. We are upset that they would expoit manga just to gain profit. It's like a car sales man trying to sell people a Honda by calling it a Mercedes. A Honda cannot be a Mercedes, neither can American comics be manga. |
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Ayokillyou
 Posts: 29 Location: Brooklyn, New York City |
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The best OEL is that which takes a full understanding of foreign Japanese comics and filters it through a local cultural worldview (ie, if you're American, it filters through an American cultural view).
The resulting product is a comic which walks with the aesthetic of a Japanese comic and talks with the mind of an American (or Canadian, or UK, etc) author. These occur to varying degrees. To the one person who asked why OEL people can't just call their books "comics"...the answer is because people like you look down on "comics." The real question is why can't you be content calling MANGA "comics?" because...manga IS comics. You can call them Japanese comics (the same way we call French films "French film") if you want to differentiate between the cultures. But manga is comics. I don't think of Batman when I think of "comics." When I think "comics" the first things that pop into my mind are Love&Rockets, Frank, Oyaubihime Infinity, Blankets, Transmetropolitan, Calvin & Hobbes, Love Roma, Popeye, Akira, Tintin, Fun Home, Saikano, The Abandoned, Scott Pilgrim... Comics is an artform, a medium; it's not tied into this superhero paradigm or this newspaper strip paradigm. Comics can be anything. A lot of these so-called manga fans need to step their comics game up and realize that the world doesn't revolve around the Land of the Rising Sun. There's a lot of interesting, fun and exciting books out there from people from RIGHT HERE. All you need is to open your minds and stop being so immature about things like WHERE something comes from. Even when people aren't saying it, they strongly imply: "if it's not from Japan, it's not worth my time." They're all comics, people. You don't know what you're missing. To my hyperdrive shonen/seinen fans, I recommend: SCOTT PILGRIM by Bryan Lee O'Malley. The funniest book money can buy. Influenced by Ranma 1/2, Dragon Ball, Nintendo, Akira, '90s indie rock and uncut awesomeness. If you're not reading this, you lost. SHARKNIFE or PENG by Corey "the Rey" Lewis. Like an adrenaline shot on speed. Sharknife is about a waiter who transforms into a hero and defends his resturant against monsters. It's one of the few comic books that might just actually kick your ass. PENG is about kickball. ACTION-kickball. EAST COAST RISING by Becky Cloonan. Adventures with punk pirates in a post-globalwarming future. They sail around a submerged New York City, fighting each other and looking for treasure and fighting awesome monsters as well. Cloonan illustrated DEMO, written by Brian Wood. She did each issue of that series in a different style, much of them were Japanese influenced. Great experiment in comics technique. MBQ by Felipe Smith. Brutal fighting, hilarious characters, comics inside of the comic...it's fun. It's an ensemble cast that centers around an aspiring comic artist who unwittingly gets mixed up with a psychotic cop, a hardened arms dealer and a homicidal boxer. WONTON SOUP by James Stokoe. It's not out yet, but it will be soon. Near as I can tell, it's about a chef who goes on to become a space trucker. Weird futuristic science-fiction, actiony stuff. KING CITY by Brandon Graham. It's kind of out now. Out in comic book stores, but won't be released in bookstores for a couple of months. It's my favorite of the whole bunch. Graham's soft, squishy cartoon world is dangerous but irresistably cute. There are dozens of small weird ideas in the book, lots of little jokes and heartfelt characters by the pound. To shojo fans, OEL has a lot to offer, but it gets better publicity, so I won't go into as much detail: SORCERERS & SECRETARIES by Amy Kim Ganter Also: REMAN MYTHOLOGY OFF*BEAT by Jen Lee Quick Also: ONCE IN A BLUE MOON DRAMACON by Svetlana Chmakova. Also: ADVENTURES OF CG!, CHASING RAINBOWS, NIGHT SILVER, SVETLANA WHENEVERLY STEADY BEAT by Rivkah RE: PLAY by Christy Lijewski. also: NEXT EXIT. |
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digitalkikka
 Posts: 462 Location: Chicago, Illinois |
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How is that proof? That is not a fact in any way, shape or form. Just because your local bookstore has more manga doesn't mean manga is outselling American comics.
This argument has been over whether you can call an American (or 'world') made comic 'manga'. I don't think anyone here would deny that manga isn't just Japanese comics.
If people wanted that they could just pick up the early manga releases with the Americanized translations.
Something tells me that you either write your own 'OEL manga' or you are just Stu Levy in disguise. No one here has written anything to imply that. |
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