Forum - View topicThe Stream - The Other Side
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SwerveCity
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Just because certain weirdos get off on stuff, that doesn't mean that stuff shouldn't be presented. Some people where probably masturbating at Home Alone, does that mean Home Alone is fetish material designed for titillation? No, obviously not. Nothing in the scene or the aftermath suggests it was done for sexual gratification. This isn't something to discuss, there is no way that scene was done for pure masturbatory needs. Sure it may have been sexual, but it wasn't sexy in anyway, there is a big difference. All you are doing is whinging about otaku and using VVV as an outlet. VVV does not deserve to be your outlet and whitewashing all anime as designed for the lowest rung of society is something I wouldn't have expected to see on this site and while I don't think you intended it to be taken that way, that is the logical end result of what you are saying. And I think the pillow is supposed to be more along the lines of fitting the whole tsundere "I'm uncomfortable in my body and the guy I like is looking down at me" idea rather than a guy forcibly pulling off her clothes. Japan seems to have a different idea of what is sexually appealing than the west and seems to prefer cute to sexy, or thats what I've found anyway. That pillow emphasises cute, in its female weakness, which is something I find sad but I don't think it was supposed to make you imagine rape. Its quite a subtle difference but its one that we have to be aware of when talking about a sub-sect of another culture. Personally, I find strong female characters with a curvier figure much more appealing(give me Misato or The Major any day). |
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Crisha
Moderator
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For me, it's not about the small minority that will get off on that scene.
And it's not about the execution or how well-developed the characters were or how effective the scenes and reactions were at demonstrating the horror of spoiler[rape.] I have not seen it, and I most likely won't. I'll trust people's reactions here that they genuinely felt the horror of the situation and that scenes and characters clearly demonstrated that it was wrong. In that case, the creators were effective at emotionally drawing in the viewers. Context is also not the issue. I understand the context from what others have described. My problem is that a situation was created where there's sympathy for an spoiler["innocent" rapist. A blameless perpetrator who rapes a girl but didn't really rape her because of some supernatural voodoo where he's not in control of his body. That because of a plot device he becomes as much of a victim as the one who was raped. I hate that. It bothers me. There's no such thing as a blameless rapist, and it bothers me that a contrived situation was created where one was. It's asinine. A bunch of men writing such things for a predominantly male audience only compounds upon the issue.] It it doesn't bother you, that's fine. I know I've watched certain things before that emotionally moved me - where I've later looked back and shook my head over the matter. In that case, it's an effective show at drawing out the emotions. There's nothing wrong with that. But this is my hot button. No amount of discussion over context or delivery is going to make it sound any better. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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@SwerveCity If you are going to quote me and respond to what I said, you should really actually quote my language (or summarize it) instead of just inserting some kind of one word reference. It makes it easier for everyone to follow the discussion.
You didn't read my actual posts, where I said I am not indicating at all that it shouldn't be presented. I am simply acknowledging what has been presented, spoiler[a rape scene], and musing about why it was put in there (particularly where most of the responses have been "it makes no sense for that to be in there.") If you disagree with my musings, then so be it.
There is a reason that sex sells, and it's not always for "masturbatory needs." When people go to the theater and watch a movie with heavy sex scenes (even without explicit depictions of genitalia) does everyone in the theater pull down their pants and start jacking off? No. However, the writers of the movie put that scene in there because they knew it will stimulate some kind of entertainment in the mind of the viewers. This happens with all kinds of stimulating scenes in movies and anime, but it is ESPECIALLY true of scenes involving clear sexual content. Sexual stimulation is one of the most powerful that the human mind/body can experience. I think any time there is a clear depiction of a sex act in media, it is proper to consider whether or not the writer was attempting to stimulate the audience, even a minority of the audience. In some cases, we might ultimately learn that there was no such attempt. But I think it is certainly a fair question to ask and consider, particularly in instances such as this where it seems random and doesn't fit well with the rest of the show. I don't know for certain how much these writers intended to do this, but neither do you. I am simply stating my opinion that I think it is very possible, particularly given the context of similar tropes in anime (this is why I made the analogy to the "innocent boob grabber," which has become a recognized trope that is used in so many anime to the entertainment of the audience.)
I'm not whining about Otaku. Like I said, I have no problems with Otaku having whatever kind of fetish they want. I just try to acknowledge what those fetishes are and discuss whether they work or don't work in a particular anime.
You can think whatever you want of that pillow. I think it is an image which is intended to create an impression of a vulnerable girl who is being placed into a sexual situation which she doesn't look comfortable with. You may think it is simply "cute," I think it is prurient. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Nuh-uh. What I'm saying is that you haven't provided any proper evidence. All you've done is twist everything to try and support the conclusion you already had, instead of looking at the evidence and deriving a conclusion from that.
BS. Complete and utter BS. For example, saying that the scene was only included to fulfil the creators' and fans' spoiler[rape fantasies] is unquestionably an attack.
You have obviously forgotten that I said the scene was included for shock value. I base this on the evidence we actually have, not some pre-formed ideological position. If I'm being too sensitive it is because I'm allowing myself to be trolled by the likes of you.
So according to you, the fact that some pillow cover from another series is popular somehow means that spoiler[the rape scene] in Valvrave the Liberator was due to Otaku fetishes. The f***? It doesn't logically follow. Jeez, did you get a lobotomy recently or something?
Ah. So you're using the old "I'm going to heavily imply that the creators and fans are deviants, but if anyone gets offended by that then tough luck" defence. Nice. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I provided plenty of proper evidence. First of all, only a few people have actually questioned whether or not a spoiler[rape] occurred. Instead, we are focusing on what does the spoiler[rape] mean for the show. I theorized that it was an attempt to create a concept of an spoiler["innocent rapist,"] which I think is pretty straightforward but you keep trying to shut down. My premise was based on the idea that this spoiler["innocent rapist"] concept is not an anomaly. I went through an analysis of the similar concept of "innocent boob grabber," and then when challenged about whether or not otaku actually are titillated by this kind of stuff, provided evidence of body pillows which promote a similar kind of conduct, which are being advertised on one of the most successful anime related websites. In response, you have mostly just been extremely hostile towards me without actually thinking for a moment about what I am saying. That is why you think I am attacking otaku when in reality I have said many times that I have no problem with them being into any of this type of stuff. I don't understand why simply commenting on the types of things which are being marketed to otaku or the types of arguably prurient themes included in many anime makes you want to attack me so badly. If you don't think it is prurient then fine, but there is no need to attack me because I raise the question of whether or not it is. I always try to respect your arguments on stuff even when you are taking a different tack than others. (P.S. If I am evil for even commenting on this, then the creators of PapaKiki must be like super mega Satan for their portrayal of otaku.) |
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Polycell
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If by the Papakiki reference you mean the president of the sightseeing club, I don't recall him being much of an otaku - his defining characteristic is his pedo/hebephilia, not his interest in fiction.
As for the idea you keep pushing of spoiler[the innocent rapist], personally it sounds like one that could definitely have a lot story milked out of it(especially with spoiler[him feeling responsible and her not knowing how to think of him]*). It's entirely possible there's no deep meaning behind it and the writers merely hit upon something that seemed interesting without being able to pull it off. *This is just my understanding of events from reading spoilers - I haven't actually watched the show, so it's possible I'm getting the wrong impression. |
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SwerveCity
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I dislike making my posts really huge and arguing about individual sections. It seems rude to other people reading the forum. My apologises if you took it as me negating your opinion.
No you didn't. Or at least if that was your intention you didn't say it very well. It seems to me your entire goal was to attack anime as being sexist(all the previous posts and your current one suggest this) and thought VVV was the smoking gun to get across your opinion. While I think anime is probably sexist as a whole, compared to western values at least, I don't think VVV or this scene is.
Perhaps "masturbatory needs" was too strong a statement for you. I meant sexual desire, but was putting a slightly stronger spin on the word. I don't think this scene was done to pleasure the audience, it was done to shock. So in a sense yes, you could say they find enjoyment in the rape but its not the rape that causes the enjoyment, it was the unknown and "what'll happen next" factor. I find it strange that you have never met a person who watches things that surprise and shock them.
I think you do. And I think your trying to paint a scene designed to shock and hook in the viewer as being designed for sexual gratification. Not one person I've ever seen discuss this ep has called it anything other than shocking.
Cute and sexual aren't opposites. You may want to reread my previous post. It may be uncomfortable to us with a western background but I don't think Japanese people see it the same way as us, and after watching 200 or so anime titles, my opinion has developed to reach this view. I probably would have thought it was attacking a vulnerable girl like you do, if I hadn't of watched as much anime. Oh and for anyone reading this, there was a guility party in the event, it was the damn spoiler[mecha]. I find it strange that we attack VVV so much for this while Gargantia has gotten away with what I consider much worse stuff. |
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Key Lime Pie
 Posts: 70 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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Dem spoilerz e.e I really shouldn't be putting this one on hold if it's not at all like SAO in terms of pacing. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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If you want to respond to someone without quoting their language, you should just do a @[Insert person's name]. When you do a quote and replace their words with some short little comment or one word, it creates an appearance of snarkiness or some kind of put down.
YES I did. I am going to link to my my posts where I said that (they were early on, so you obviously haven't been reading the whole discussion). In both of those posts I said that I am not opposed to spoiler[rape scenes] being presented in general, but was musing about why it was presented in this case and whether it worked or not. Please read my actual replies before putting words in my mouth. Post 1 Post 2 Furthermore, I didn't "attack anime" as being sexist or anything else. I have been commenting about common tropes that exist in anime and comparing the scene in Valvrave to those common tropes. It is so annoying to me when people refuse to listen to what you actually say and instead try to psycho-analyze what they think you really believe. It is extremely arrogant.
I am glad that you are recognizing that there is some form of enjoyment going on. Yes, I agree that for some people it might be purely enjoyment of the shock. For some people it might be enjoyment of the tension of not knowing what will happen next. For some it might be enjoyment of the idea of the sex act. There are many different types of enjoyment which can flow from a scene like that. I am considering all of that when I say "stimulation."
Again, you should go by what I say, not by what you would prefer to think my true intentions are. As I said above, that is extremely arrogant. |
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