Forum - View topicThe Stream - The Other Side
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belvadeer
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I've run the course with Mushibugyo, Devil Survivor and Gargantia, so I'll see them through to the end.
Looks like Valvrave has sparked quite a bit of debate. Also, Attack on Titan seems to be a real winner this season. Maybe I should start watching that one. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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I wasn't entirely sure about what you meant, but that's a valid reaction on your part too, since I've acknowledged several times that those who are particularly sensitive about this topic and/or who expected a much better portrayal of the same are totally within their rights to feel bad or disgusted about it and not watch the show. That's not how I look at the situation myself, for various reasons, but I am also not adopting the opposite view you've criticized above.
You're quite correct in that a better show would have probably handled this entire thing better. While my opinion of the series might be slightly more generous than yours, it's still not very high at all. The show is crazy dumb and the writing in particular isn't remotely high quality. My position is that acknowledging the cheapness of the device, the sensitive nature of the subject or the questionable execution doesn't mean it can't also serve other purposes in-universe at the same time, though they might be open to debate.
Recalling the basic structural distinction between fantasy and reality is certainly appropriate, to be sure, but the specific way in which events "make sense" or not isn't necessarily limited to the two extreme options that you've described (which, it should be said, are neither universally true in fact nor specifically accurate in this context). Not all otaku "fantasy lands" are created equal. There is definitely a risk that many of our rationalizations end up heading towards nonsense, which can also happen when talking about vastly superior pieces of fiction, but some of them are better supported by the material than others and that's not a non-issue. Your own proposed external rationalization isn't perfect nor free from sudden leaps with respect to the intent, since anime producers do not need to personally enjoy offensive elements or consider them fetishes in order to create material with such elements for whatever reasons. There is no denying that this whole series is appealing to an audience of otaku (as well as a number of fujoshi), but the details do not become irrelevant as a result. For instance, the surrounding circumstances indicate that assuming "everything will be okay" is...extremely unlikely to be accurate in this case. |
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nechronius
 Posts: 275 Location: So Cal, USA |
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I would like to point out that in Valvrave the Liberator, spoiler[Saki raped Haruto first in the obviously very loose interpretation of the term that so many people are using].
Yes, mind blowing, I know. Define it as a non consensual act against someone else's will. It is not just limited to the physical act, so think about my above statement for a moment. Give up? spoiler[Saki suddenly bit Haruto, thereby possessing his body. She did this deliberately, knowingly, and pre-meditated and without his prior consent. He had no chance to give consent and fits the relatively loose interpretation of the "rape" scene people are getting so upset about.] So let's not get too uptight about a later incident spoiler[where the "victim," although initially surprised, was clearly accepting of the actions of someone not in any possession of their mental faculties. She could have "reset" him with a knee to the crotch as it seems that this blood rage can be easily reset with some low grade pain like a punch or a smack.] Now that said, I'm rather dismayed at such flippant and exploitive (and particularly poor) use of such plot devices, but that's a different kind of an issue. The show is pretty run of the mill otherwise and not particularly memorable, but hey, notoriety drives interest. spoiler[Frankly I'm a little surprised that a "vampire" can possess another of their kind so easily, especially if he's supposed to be the main character.] |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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^ I am trying to figure out exactly what your definition of spoiler[rape] is. Your vague commentary doesn't really seem to lay out any definition, but instead seems to just try to rationalize what happened in the show (i.e. your assertion that she spoiler["accepted it" in some way]. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that). Like I said, I really don't have a problem with such scenes being in a show. I just think they need to be handled properly and we shouldn't be afraid to recognize them for what they are and discuss them accordingly.
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
 Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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@chibi I'm not sure if I should weigh in or not but spoiler[rape] to is unwanted sexual contact period. I don't care if the character is male, female or a damn monster girl/boy. It's all the same to me which is why I don't know why it's so hard to understand.
Now with that said I don't want spoiler[rape] to never be in fictional media, we do have right to explore the dark-side of human nature. However it's how the issue is handled with in said fictional world that deserves either praise or disapproval. Law and Order svu is a prime example of addressing the issue the right way, Valvare is not. |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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Leaving the obvious discrepancies and so on aside...the thing is, the morally "right" way isn't the only way you'll find such issues addressed in other projects, whether we're talking about good shows or bad shows, and much better productions have also offended people when a less-than-sensible portrayal of the topic comes up. At the end of the day everyone draws the line, or crosses it, at different points and in different ways. |
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zensunni
 Posts: 1294 |
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I'm not watching Valvrave, so I can't comment on the topic at hand in terms of that show, but for those of you who are old enough to remember, think back to the early 1980s ... General Hospital ... Luke and Laura ... Biggest daytime TV event in the history of daytime TV up to that point: their wedding. The start of their "relationahip": spoiler[rape]. It's not like Valvrave is doing anything new here.
spoiler[I was in high school at the time, and when I look back at how huge the Luke and Laura relationship was in terms of pop culture and the fact that it started with him raping her, I shudder. What kind of sick bastards are we in this country? And why was I one of them? ewwwwwww!] |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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HOLY SHIT THATS LIKE HALF OF MY POINT. Ugh. How can you not get this!? |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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well if really want to pi** off some people spoiler[rape] is a-okay in the bible. Just remember if you spoiler[rape] a woman she can be forced to marry you. This mind-set has been around 4000 years, isn't that lovely? spoiler[ (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.] spoiler[(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT) When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.] |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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That's an interesting precedent, but I don't think the show will ultimately go that straightforward route after all. It's too damn twisty. Without spoiling too much, in the show their "relationship" technically started quite a bit earlier and I think it's going to get...forcefully put on hold or called off rather soon, all of that aside from the question of spoiler[whether the girl actually accepts or not, which isn't clear either.] |
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unready
 Posts: 409 Location: Illinois, USA |
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I would go back to how uncomfortable this show can be to watch. I think the producers are trying not to overwhelm the audience with discomfort. If it's too painful to watch, people will just turn it off. If nothing happens, people will turn it off. Based on a lot of rage (and all the negative ratings in the encyclopedia), it seems people are turning it off just because it's rotoscoped and not standard 2D animation. I still think the rotoscoping is actually impressive. I do continue to wonder why they overdubbed almost all the voices with other actors, though. FWIW Sunaoka has a few staff photos from the production online. If I met any of the live actors on the street, the only one I'd be able to recognize from the show is the guy that plays Yamada. Everyone else looks very different (compared to A Scanner Darkly, where you could easily recognize Keanu Reeves and Winona Ryder).
I've heard that the works of James P. Hogan are popular in Japan. In his Giants series, there is a warlike race of humans who use an AI to coordinate their entire civilization. It later turns out that it was the AI that was keeping them warlike. I'm not someone who wholeheartedly subscribes to post-modernism, but it's also not the first time I've seen Hogan's ideas in anime. The ability to send messages one-way into the past was a theme in Thrice Upon a Time and showed up in Steins;Gate.
I guess I can forgive the occasional subject/verb number disagreement and lack of proper perfect passive participles, but unless you're trying to say Arata is like a really good game played by pushing a compressed rubber disk over a field of ice with sticks, I think the word you want is "hokey." |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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...I just really like hockey, okay??? (Thanks. Fixed. ^^ 
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Key Lime Pie
 Posts: 70 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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Hentai Prince and Stony Cat clearly takes the cake for me. Enjoying it lots and the cast is easily one of the best I've seen in a long time.
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ZiharkXVI
Posts: 387 |
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This and a million times this. People are scaring me with some of these asinine comments. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
And people are being drama queens by saying that spoiler[the rape] that happened in Valvrave the Liberator is the same as spoiler[all rapes ever. It's not. Not all rapes are equal, and there were unusual circumstances here. Haruto had literally no control of himself, and Saki was already interested in Haruto. (And no, I'm not in any way saying that Saki had it coming or anything like that.) People screaming RAPE IS RAPE are missing the point big time.] |
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