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halochief_90
 Posts: 466 Location: Canada |
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I can hardly believe how seriously some people are taking that scene from Valvrave. You'd swear this wasn't the same show about body-swapping space-vampires and a student-run country which occasionally delves into into improv-musicals.
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5528 Location: Mexico |
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It's got less to do with avoiding mindless discussion and more with me not wanting to watch a show that portraysspoiler[ rape so poorly, and mostly, does such a disservice to rape victims. As a woman I may be more sensitive to the topic, and I find it highly offensive that people try to brush this off saying "she stopped struggling" or "she didn't look angry/sad the next day". And SilverTalon's argument? That this is actually a plot device of her trying to get a man? Great job of putting the blame on the victim. Next thing we know, someone will come around saying she was the one who seduced him first by wearing a mini skirt or whatever] Yeah, definitely not for me. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Regarding Valvrave the Liberator, spoiler[Haruto did not rape Saki. He was essentially mind-controlled into the act, and cannot be held responsible for his body's actions. Now, does that fact justify rape being included by the creators? Not really. It might have worked in a better show, but this is not a good show. The rape was pretty shoddily implemented, made even worse by the epically awful music that was used.]
As for spoiler[Saki's reaction, it is not easy to understand, because it is not what we think it 'should' be. She probably couldn't have fought off Haruto given that he's stronger than her and going berserk, and consent was definitely not given. But she was clearly into him before the incident and doesn't blame him because it wasn't his fault. Plus she seems to accept that it is a curse and that such things are her fate.] Lots of people don't like the ambiguity of this, they want something more clear cut. They want simple concepts from Valvrave the Liberator because they think it is and should always be a simple show. It isn't a simple show, just a crappily-written one. A better show could have had the same scenario and made it work - just because spoiler[there is rape in a show] doesn't automatically make it a bad show - but in this one it is just a cheap trick. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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No, its not ambiguous, its just shitty.
I mean, there are interesting things you can do with spoiler[rape], though you have to have the writing chops to pull it off. Not to mention that the body-swapping concept (which is pretty pathetically underused) could have led to legit ambiguity. But no, this isn't ambiguous at all. Its just gross. |
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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Isn't there a specific thread dedicated to discussing whatever show has generated two pages that look like redacted documents from the NSA?
As for Chihayafuru, I see this season as showing the mangaka's love for karuta. I rather enjoy learning about strategies and techniques like Arata's cross-hand move or choices about which card to give your opponent. You really couldn't learn much about Go from Hikaru because the game is so incredibly complex. Karuta is orders of magnitude simpler so it's possible to convey some of the strategy involved to the viewer. One enticing little aspect of the more recent episodes was the hints about Shinobu's feelings toward Arata. Even though she is too emotionally immature to understand what they are, her attraction to him has been there for all to see once she touched his shoulder on the steps. The disrobing scene was especially telling. The last few episodes of Gargantia show how much was lost by the poor pacing of the story, particularly the need to insert two fanservice episodes into the middle. I don't know whether to fault Urobuchi or the demands of the production committee. The contrast with Madoka is especially striking. There, even the back-story episodes like Kyouko's moved the story forward. I never had the feeling that the story in Madoka came to a halt in the way I did with Gargantia. In a one-cour show every moment counts. I felt like I.G dropped the ball just as things started to come together. |
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jymmy
 Posts: 1244 |
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It's ambiguous for the reasons dtm42 pointed out, and it's shitty for the reasons... well, you didn't say how it was shitty, but it is. It's both. Something both being bad overall and having you not like it doesn't somehow mean every single thing about it sucks. Saki's feelings on the matter are ambiguous, and the question of what they are is one the show has raised. Claiming otherwise makes no sense.
Hold on there, if you're not careful I'll think you're judging less from logic and more from rectal discomfort. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24137 |
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Well, to be fair to fencedude, it's no wonder he's experiencing rectal discomfort considering how often he jams his head there.
My own take on the scene in question is that it was well-handled. If you've been watching the show from the beginning, it does come out of previously established elements. It's not a cheap trick. It's not presented in a way to merely titillate or pander to the "I loves watching me some spoiler[rape]!" Brigade. It is unsettling, of course, but there is a deep poignancy on a number of different levels with impact on three different characters that I believe completely justifies its existence. Valvrave could have been simply a fun, goofy, over-the-top romp and I have a certain amount of sympathy for any viewer who wants only that. I could have enjoyed it purely on that level myself. The inclusion of this and other instances of "srs biznes" are jarring, but ultimately I think will make this a more memorable show for me than it otherwise would have been. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2634 |
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Well sure but I think you are missing the point that Kadowaki is psychologically unstable (if the overacting by Ryohei Kimura didn't clue this in). He believes he can't trust anyone, that everyone is looking down on him. He think Hinohara let him win because he thought Kadowaki was such a loser and that Hinohara never saw him as a true friend. Of course it is irrational but he is an irrational teenager. |
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TheAncientOne
 Posts: 1892 Location: USA (mid-south) |
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From the article:
I assume you are referring to the scene in the elevator. If so, a technical correction: Takahi is a third year student, not a teacher. She is also the same one that Saki "put the moves on" when she bodyjacked Haruto earlier in the series, something I doubt she has mentioned to him. It is also a bit curious that in that scene it was Saki that said the line you are referring to, but you state, "...did someone say...". I think this points out the problem with trying to watch and review so many series at once; the fine details get lost, and sometimes those details can add up to something important. |
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Maize Hughes
Posts: 81 |
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Yeah, I'm down to just watching Yahari Blah blah blah/Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU and Hataraku Maoh-sama/The Devil is a Part-Timer. I rank that last one a lot higher for a really simple reason: I'm terribly sleep deprived, but I'm willing to struggle to stay awake to catch the latest episode, and I'm still laughing spontaneously and loudly enough to wake up other people. Anything that intrinsically funny and engaging is pretty darn good - my body cannot lie.
I'd fallen behind on Valvrave, assuming that it would be fun to marathon with my friends next season. To say I'm disappointed with what happened is an understatement. I'm really, really, unhappy with it. Really unhappy. Bad move, production company, bad move. I could go on and on, but looking at the post count on this thread, without even looking, I can guess other people have already made all my points. Bamboo, I'm glad you provided the spoiler text - I knew what happened, but I'm glad you gave the option of warning the unprepared. Good job. I'd deliberately fallen behind on Gargantia - after ep3, I wasn't invested in the characters, but I was pretty clear that we were guaranteed at least one shocking twist, and I wanted to make sure I was thoroughly spoiled before I watched the rest. Excellent! My plans are coming together! Right now my thoughts are filled with the Megatokyo Kickstarter, so I'm a little too distracted to pay attention to next season's previews. Normally I'd be all over that, so consider that an endorsement, I guess? |
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ladybastet
Posts: 21 |
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I haven't seen Arata yet and really didn't think I would because I "was" reading the manga. Kadowaki always bugged me because of the grudge. In the manga we get more background on it but it is still really irrational. After the world swap Kadowaki gets brought down a notch by Arata but then he swaps over and goes into major killer revenge mode and I had enough. It was Fushigi Yugi on steroids and I have enough trouble with manipulated gullible whiny-baby girls.
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I always find it interesting when fans of a series defend the use of an extreme plot device spoiler[like rape] in anime by saying thatspoiler[ the victim of the rape later acted in a manner which made it OK.] It's as if people don't realize that these characters are not actually real flesh and blood people.
At the outset, we must all remember that the world in which this story is set is a complete fantasy world which was created from scratch in the mind of some writer (who in most cases is probably an "otaku" male, aged 25-45). In the fantasy land of the average otaku male, certain things might make sense which we may find to be extremely offensive in the real world. For example, in the fantasy land of the average otaku male (at least according to the anime industry), men routinely trip over random objects on the ground and cause their hands, faces, etc. to be pushed directly into young girls boobs and other private areas, which are then groped extensively. Afterwards, those men get giant nosebleeds (which proves to us that they didn't intend for that to happen and are thus completely innocent of any wrongdoing), and then get punched in the face with such force that they fly 100 feet into the sky. Then, the "accidental" groping is completely forgotten about afterwards by the victim while the perpetrator of the groping continues to blush and innocently fantasize about what happened, to our general approval. This is completely contrary to the real world. In the real world, if a man "accidentally" tripped over some object, stumbled into a young girl and put his hands or face on her breasts, then started groping "innocently," he would probably be arrested and charged with some kind of sexual assault. The same holds true in an instance where, in the fantasy land, spoiler[a male "loses control of his body" via some kind of contrived curse, then forces a girl to have sex with him against her will. Then, afterwards, she realizes that even though she was raped, he is kind of hot and maybe if they go on a cute little date together, everything will be ok. The rape is forgotten about, and romance is in the air!] In the real world, such a turn of events would be a mortifying tragedy, spoiler[the rapist] would probably be arrested and placed in some kind of psych ward after claiming he could no longer control his body, and the victim would suffer shame, humiliation, and fear, probably for the rest of her life. (Doesn't make for the most exciting storytelling, eh?) Now, this being said, as Fencedude indicated in his post I am not saying that spoiler[rape] cannot be used in any kind of artistic expression. I'm not even really objecting to it being used here. I am just saying that we all need to be honest with ourselves in looking at it, and not try to rely on the contrived rationalization inserted into the narrative by an otaku writer (who is likely just bringing his totally unrealistic inner fantasies to life) in justifying what is depicted. Most of the time, such rationalizations are complete and utter nonsense, whether or not we the audience are titillated or entertained by the viewing experience. |
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SwerveCity
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1)Maou-sama
I'm really enjoying this show. All the characters are (somewhat) well rounded, the jokes have stayed funny even if some are getting a tad tired, the fights are insanely enjoyable in a very DBZ way and its just overall been a lot of fun. 2)Valvrave At the start I kept on thinking I'd drop this but I never did. Its now at the point where I'm looking forward to how edgy and stupid this can get. Its gone past trainwreck value and now I'm enjoying it for its own sake. My spoilers aren't kind, so I'm going to warn you now. spoiler[Yes it was rape, arguing anything else makes you a bad/dangerous/misguided person. I think the rape was handled well. Saki is evidently heavily traumitised by it and is just trying to forget it happened. Haruto is acting like a teenage male from a non-western country who raped a girl and evidently he believes its a big enough deal that he'll give up the girl he loves and spend his life with Saki. Shoko's suffering is also something else to watch.] What will happen next? I really must know. 3)Yahari Hachiman carries this show. He is hilarious and delightful to watch. I'm glad that they haven't tried to make him normal and he's stayed on the outside of society but at the same time he has developed over the course of the show. Apart from Hachiman this show is sort of weak. 4)Attack on Titan I really loved this at the start but its pacing has slowed down to a crawl. Production IG and random no-name company shouldn't have been given this title, with the amount of work IG has they can't give it the time it deserves and the no-name company just wasn't ready for such a big project. Its a huge waste of a great story. 5)Gargantia I think everyone agrees with the idea that the middle-stretch was the weakest section. Overall I think it just feels really unpolished, lots of great ideas that were never really worked well into the story. Its a damn shame this could've been the highlight of the season but, like Attack on Titan, its been let down by pacing and lack of polish? It just doesn't feel like the story was finished before they started making it. 6)Railgun Its heavily hit and miss. At its best, Mikoto is Hei on steroids, at its worst its a pretty damn boring SoL aimed at Otaku. Fights scenes have been great though and some of the scenes have been pretty damn traumatising(I think it might've actually taken the tile for most traumatising scene of the season). Mikoto is nicely developing and is a really great character when she isn't around Touma but weirdly enough I'm looking forward to her scenes with Touma. Shame the other characters aren't as good but perhaps thats a good thing? I'd prefer them to do one character well than make a bunch of mediocre characters. Its better than the first season or either Index season, which is the best it could really go for. 7)Date-A-Live I enjoyed this. Sure Tohka and the MC were as dull as dirt and the plot was really bad but I laughed every episode. Kurmi and Kotori where really enjoyable and the fights where decent. I suppose you could say its a guilty pleasure show for guys who like Japanese entertainment products too much but at the same time, unlike most of those kinds of titles, its tongue is firmly in its cheek and its attempts at titillation are hilarious(I suppose some might find them sexually appealing but I found myself laughing). 8)RDG I seem to have put this on hold or perhaps dropped would be the better word. I liked the first 3 eps but then it seemed to just drag, I guess I'll try to marathon it. Last edited by SwerveCity on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:20 am; edited 3 times in total |
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prime_pm
 Posts: 2368 Location: Your Mother's Bedroom |
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Say spoiler[rape] a few more times, maybe we can get this thread locked.
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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