Forum - View topicREVIEW: Steins;Gate BD+DVD 1
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yoshiyukiblade
Posts: 305 |
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I'm of the opinion that Mayuri's character is more like an act, though not as over-the-top as Okarin. This was apparent near the end of the series where spoiler[Okarin returned to the beta worldline, giving his dramatic victory speech. Mayuri didn't play along and told him that he didn't have to act that way anymore because she was better now. It was quite a defining moment; her voice was very earnest and beautiful.]
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getchman
 He started itPosts: 9133 Location: New Hampshire |
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didn't someone close to Mayuri spoiler[die, like a parent, when she was young and it hit her really hard and nearly broke her? im certain Okabe acts like a severely schizophrenic goofball mainly to distract her from any grief and came up with the hostage thing, to which she played along and it just sort of tuned up as a becoming the mask trope over time. ] i do believe that she confronts him about this later on and says she is ok now
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I agree. However, Steins;Gate is a show I'd like to like and to that end I'm certainly inclined to accept such a theory even if it wasn't the intent.
I can't actually agree with that. Mayuri is certainly an exception amid the core cast but amid the whole cast? No, I don't think so. I mean, I really don't find Feris or Ruka to be realistic or believable at all. |
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Etrien
 Posts: 525 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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That's a fair point, and I definitely agree on Feris. Ruka is...borderline for me. Not particularly believable, but at the same time, not explicitly unbelievable like Mayuri is. Those are also the three characters who bugged me the most in the show, for precisely that reason. But, with this perspective change, Mayuri is fixed. And with Feris... My biggest problem isn't the character herself (she's rather generic*), but rather her entire plotline revolving around spoiler[how she's the origin of all the moe culture in Akiba.] It was that plot element that bugged me, not the character so much. Probably my least favorite part of S;G. *Which is sad, because Feris was one of my favorites in the early part. Her persona, like Okabe, is obviously an act, and I saw her goofy behavior with Okabe as clearly not serious - she was just playing along with his stories. And I found that charming. How often does a anime have characters casually play with the eccentric character, instead of the more typical "Are you an idiot!?" overreaction? But, ultimately, nothing interesting was done with her and her plotline was dumb. But nonetheless, when I said Mayuri was a distinct anomaly, I meant that she was on a different level altogether. Ruka and Feris have some issues, but they aren't deal breakers to my enjoyment. Mayuri was. And for the record, I don't find Kurisu to be overly believable, either, but the whole "hot 18-year-old super genius in hotpants and a labcoat" is pretty much the kind of thing I just have to accept when watching anime. But once you get past that one, absurd thing, the show's utilization of her character (especially second half) was done well enough that it still left a positive overall impression and she falls in my "good characters" category. I am still of the opinion, though, that Kurisu's single greatest contribution to the show wasn't even done by her. (No spoilers. Dub watchers will probably miss out on some of this fun.) And lastly, I've only watched the show once, when it very first aired. So, I admit my memory is kind of foggy. At the time, though, I did feel that this theory was compatible. But it is just a possibility in my mind, nothing I'm insisting. At the very least, once I considered it (probably 1/3rd to 1/2 through the run of the show), it alone raised my rating for the show at least half a letter grade. |
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zeroyuki92
Posts: 45 |
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1.
Why did you mix average of 1908 people's rating with popularity? They're completely different. Steins;Gate is a popular anime, but even in that year alone, it's still far below the year's most popular. 2. Objectively it can't be called masterpiece? Then NO anime could be called as a masterpiece, since your entire opinion about masterpiece work is also an opinion, no matter how hard you try to make your opinion to be looked as an objective argument. Sorry, I could only see this as a classic "My taste > Your taste" case. 3. This entire case is caused by a simple thing : Some people try to create a single rating system for a work of art, something which is impossible from the very beginning. Most people in west, especially in ANN, try to make a simple approach : Plot > All other aspects, while not all of works are plot driven, and not all of people prioritize plot as their own base of scoring. Steins;Gate, as far as I remember, use the power of engagement as the main force to draw the viewers. Steins;Gate isn't a masterpiece if you see it solely from technical merits alone, but most people rate S;G with 10 because they could totally relate to Okabe, his desperate moments, his sweet moments with people that dear to him, and of course his final achievement. Just like Clannad After Story, where the infamous single scene in episode 18 (?) sealed the "Masterpiece" status for most of it's fans despite of the deus-ex-machina ending. "Masterpiece" itself is relative to people. Many will argue to accept any titles that you think as a "Masterpiece". I don't regard Grave of Fireflies as a masterpiece (It's still a good movie and I still rate it with 8 or 9), no matter how hard you try to brag about it's technical awesomeness. Why? It's simple, since it couldn't do it's main job for a drama movie to me : Total emotional hook. So, it's either "Let people regard anything they like as their own Masterpiece as they wish", or "There is no Masterpiece at all". The only fact that we could get is that more people that voted in ANN regard S;G as a masterpiece compared to your "Masterpieces". Deal with it. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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This isn't as coherent as I'd like it to be since it is almost 8am and I've been awake all night watching the Poms trounce the All Blacks. Anyway, I've touched it up as much as possible so here goes.
No, they're not. While Steins;Gate is not the most-seen title it still has enough views that the final bayesian rating actually means something and can be taken as a sign of popularity. I mean, popularity isn't just how many people have heard of something but also how many of those people then actually liked the work in question.
No Anime is perfect. None. I've never encountered one (several have come close) and I never will. But that doesn't mean that there aren't masterpieces, works which we look up to and treasure and use as the gold standard. Steins;Gate is not one of them. It's too flawed, too weak, overly aimless in the first half and some characters just didn't work properly.
Then you're wrong. It isn't about taste, it is about objective quality.
You're right in that many - I'd even go so far as to say most - fans prioritise things other than plot. But story and characters are the bread and butter of almost every work (barring experimental titles). I've said it before; technical merits and actions scenes and even jokes will always be surpassed or become old-fashioned, but good writing is forever. Well-written characters populating well-written stories makes for a quality title. Most fans base their ratings off of subjective enjoyment, not on actual objective merits.
I know I just said that no masterpiece is perfect. But damn, use a better example for your argument than Clannad After Story. It's badly written and emotionally cheap. If people have to outright ignore or discount the numerous problems - many of them quite big - just to like the show then hey, that's their business. But those issues have to be factored in when discussing the overall objective quality, and they most certainly prevent it from being a masterpiece. I can see why people - who were simply rating based on their personal enjoyment - rated Steins;Gate (or Clannad After Story) perfect shows, if they absolutely loved it and/or it resonated with them. But they can't then turn around and claim it is a 10. They can claim it as an actual masterpiece. Otherwise the meaning and the value of the rating "10/10" and the word "masterpiece" is lost and they become synonymous with "something I like a lot" or "one of my favourites". They should be used only for those titles that actually deserve them, not those titles that zealous fans believe should deserve them. In short, if something resonated with a fan then there's no problem liking it. But they shouldn't then use terminology used to invoke (or give the implication of) objective quality, because that's misleading. Just because you like something a lot does not mean that title is worthy of a 10/10 or the term "masterpiece". I would never say that Dragonball Z is a masterpiece - hell no - so fans need to think twice before claiming that their favourite title must automatically be a masterpiece.
People's opinions of what they like - what they consider to be their most favourite Anime - are of course relative. But objective quality transcends that. It requires actual evidence, not just feelings. I don't know what you mean by "total emotional hook", but it sounds like an awfully high barrier. What about if you are 98% emotionally invested in a show; in your eyes is it prevented from being a masterpiece then? I never claimed that Grave of the Fireflies was a masterpiece just because of the technical merits. In fact, the movie isn't even one of Ghibli's better-looking titles. It is a masterpiece because of the tragic anti-war message, because of the powerful themes, and because of the strong bond between brother and sister.
This is absurd and ignores the actual reality; that there are masterpieces but they are not chosen by popular vote. Popularity is decided by a democracy, but objective quality arises from a meritocracy.
Now you're just being a bit petty. So what if Steins;Gate is rated higher than literally scores of objectively superior titles? As we're been discussing, the ANN rankings are based on what people liked rather than a more objective measure, so of course it would be skewed in favour of popularity. This isn't kindergarten so there's no need to go "neh neh, your titles aren't as cool and well-regarded as my titles are". |
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zeroyuki92
Posts: 45 |
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5 AM and it's been days after last reply, so I will try to make it not too long.
I wasn't talking about technical merits, actions, or jokes (Steins;Gate isn't even stellar on any of that). I would agree that they aren't the main component of a story, except for a specialized story. I was talking about plot driven vs character driven. This subject is always discussed heavily, but most writers agreed that they're the most essential foundation for any story and most writers start with one of them. The problem is : plot driven is always more structured and objective, while character driven is always more holistic and subjective. While plot could be analyzed easier, character driven are far more tricky. As any other subjective factors, I believe the most accurate way to analyze it, although it doesn't even matter in the end , are popular opinion.
Just some sampling from some sources regarding plot driven vs character driven, just to back up my statement. Please note that I wouldn't say that character is more important (since the most ideal condition should be a good mix between two). I just want to counter your theory that every aspects of a masterpiece story must be judged with objectivity alone. What is masterpiece again, anyway?
I believe "masterpiece" here refer to the later sentence, so let's just say that masterpiece is an outstanding work (Don't nitpick because of wikipedia, this isn't a scientific paper). Since outstanding are relative to person (since people prefer works with different value, somewhere between character vs plot driven), I believe using popular opinion as one of the basis shouldn't be as flawed as you believe right now.
Now, are you sure you wasn't assuming your opinion as objective statement? I would call "aimless" is intentional, and that's one of the reason why S;G suddenly jump very high in popularity after the first half ended. Sudden change from aimless insecurity to "shit hits the fan" is one of the method that make the whole "attachment factor" works. Bad characters? In contrast to most "western mindset" community such as ANN that value some characters in S;G as bad characters (e.g : Mayuri), many people in the other side of internet beg to disagree. Standing somewhere between, I think Mayuri isn't a really good character by herself, but she serves as an excellent foil for Okabe to make him as an excellent character. Call her as only a moving plot device, but I think she excels at that and it should be appreciated. I'm not going to force you to accept Steins;Gate as a masterpiece. Heck, even I just call S;G as "close to masterpiece". However, I just ask you to appreciate other's opinions. Not all of people are going with only one standard, and objective values isn't the king of everything. Why I brought Clannad After Story to the table? That was intentional. That's the most polarized anime series in my memory, ranging from "masterpiece" to "this show has bad writing and cheap emotional trick". Then, why it could be the best rated series in ANN? How the heck 2537 of 3999 people who watched it labeled that as "masterpiece"? Sure, you could just use that to prove your claim, meaning of "Masterpiece" has been degenerated. That's actually true, it has been and will always change over time. Demography of viewers change, value in humanity change, and this time, those 2537 made those claim. Maybe that's a living proof of "emotional attachment" actually regarded as the most important factor of a show right now, leaving behind the so-called "objective factors" that you propose as the only factor that we can use to call a show "masterpiece". I won't force you to change your mindset and I doubt you will even if I tried again, so let's just agree to disagree here. Thank you for your share of mind 
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Ditto. |
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