Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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Group A-29: Light vs L (Death Note)
Light and L's rivalry is way more complex than Inuyasha-tachi/ Naraku thanks to the amount of risk it carries for the Death Note characters when it comes to their lives and the plans they carry out to try overcoming the other. Group A-30: Shizuo vs Izaya (Durarara) I see this as a match where regardless of who wins, they will be fodder for Light and L's continued dominance of Group A since both rivalries in this match don't have much that allow them to stick out compared to the inevitable victor of this bracket. San and Eboshi's rivalry does have the edge when it comes to having justification for it. But the two don't have many encounters with one another and for the most part, seem like they are being used as representatives of the clashing factions they represent in Princess Mononoke. Durarara, at the very least, creates a personal history between Shizuo and Izaya with more frequent clashes between the two in the show's run to make their rivalry look legitimate instead of having both characters being used as representatives of clashing factions. Group B-29: Goku vs Vegeta (Dragonball Z) Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry is legitimate up until the latter's betrayal of the Hidden Leaf Village where by the time the two encounter one another again in Shippuden, it seemingly becomes one-sided as Sasuke is more motivated in his plans of revenge instead of dealing with his old rival. While Naruto considers Sasuke his goal by improving his abilities as a ninja to keep up with his old ally, the matter is a mere afterthought for Sasuke because of being revenge-obsessed which kills some of the credibility of the feud by that point. While lacking in depth compared to Naruto, Goku and Vegeta's feud still remains constant throughout DBZ's run as the two Saiyans were enemies in the earlier episodes of the series and later view one another as worthy rivals with Vegeta working to surpass Goku in strength and Goku being willing to take on the Saiyan prince whenever the opportunity arises. The feud might be a typical power action rivalry, but it still lasts throughout much of DBZ's run compared to Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry becoming one-sided later on. Group B-30: Lelouch vs Suzaku (Code Geass) While I do prefer Gundam over Code Geass, I do have to admit that Char and Amuro's rivalry doesn't genuinely become heated until the final episodes of the original series following spoiler[Lalah's death]. Even then, it carries the same issues I've addressed with San and Eboshi's rivalry in that both men are being used within the series to represent Zeon and Federation forces, as well as their encounters with one another not being as frequent. While Suzaku and Lelouch's rivalry carry similar personal and ideological clashes as Char and Amuro, it carries a key element that makes it stick out more prominently in the fact both were close friends before realizing who they were clashing with (Lelouch as Zero, Suzaku piloting the Lancelot). When the two realize whom they eventually clash with, both come across as genuinely shocked to know that they are clashing with a close friend thus making their rivalry all the more personal. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Minigame results. Pretty much everyone took a pounding this past week, as the Berserk and Trigun rivalries had been highly favored, and Johan vs Tenma had been the most popular choice for the bottom quarter.
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group A-29
Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note I still haven't seen any arguments for any other rivalry in this tournament to convince me that these guys don't deserve to win it all. Group A-30 Voting for: Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! Same reason as every other round the Mononoke rivals have been in: I just don't find San convincing as a character and thus any rivalry is shallow. Group B-29 Voting for: Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise This one is tough because I know about the same amount about both. But what I have heard suggests that this rivalry is a bit more developed in the long-run or at least does some different things. So I'll go with it. Group B-30 Voting for: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass I said I might vote for them after the last round and, after thinking about it and reading other arguments, I've decided to go for it. The Gundam rivalry is a classic but things people have said make it sound like it may not have the greatest development, while I think Code Geass did a great job with these two. |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Group A-29
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Light vs. L. I hate to turn on T. Inuyasha but they're beat here. Group A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! San vs. Lady Eboshi. The hatred between these two is strong and palpable. Group B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z Goku vs. Vegeta. This is a hard choice since they're so similar, but what tips the scale for me is a short interview I read that said the creator of Naruto based Sasuke and Naruto's relationship off of Goku and Vegeta. So Im deciding to go with the original, not to mention DBZ does the rivalry well without melodrama. Group B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam[/quote] Lelouch vs. Suzaku. Because of other people's arguments and the clip. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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A bit underwhelming this week for voter turnout. I count only 8 voters who have participated in voting thus far for this set of matches.
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4629 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Sorry, somewhere along the line I lost interest in this tourney. Not much passion for arguing these for some reason... still.
Group A-29 Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Voting For: Light vs. L What puts this over for me is that final meeting, where everything is set and though L has no proof he knows his fate but spends his time being quite affectionate to LIght. Ultimately I think it's a very well done melancholy relationship and rivalry. I really like Naraku's story and the twisted motivation and the strong reasons the Team has to fight him but I guess it's still a good guys vs. Demonic evil fight- and those are a dime-a-dozen Group A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! Voting For: San vs. Lady Eboshi The Durarara rivalry may better with further installments of the story but, no matter how fun, as it's depicted now it's mainly just about how much one annoys the other. San and Lady Eboshi have far more levels that make you think and in their period way they are just as awesome fighters and foes as the DRRR pair. Group B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z Voting For: Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha The relationship between these two is simply more interesting to me, works on more levels. Group B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam[/quote] Voting For:Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable. Two shows I really don't care to watch, but I've always gotten the impression that this one is one of the more epic showdowns, the sort of rivalry that defines the franchise and stands on its own. |
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Olliff
 Posts: 550 |
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Group A-29
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Light vs. L.Yet another vote cast to the DN powerhouse. Their chemistry, intensity, and ability to draw you in unparallelled. I wonder if their melodramatic nature will prevent this adrenaline packed physiological and ideological rivalry from progressing as far as they deserve -- only time will tell. Group A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! Izaya vs Shizuo. Both are very different, and I would rather side with the one without the stiffness and one of a more unique dynamics. Izaya performs villianry with panache and Shizuo is always a blast to watch in action. This is exactly the type of rivalry that glues your eyes to the tube. Group B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z Goku vs. Vegeta. As mentioned before, both rivalries are similar, but I would rather go with the one the that inspired the other. Goku vs Vegeta is an iconic rivalry for a reason with a long history and plenty of bad blood to back it up. Not only that but many other rivalries have followed in this rivalry's footsteps and Naruot vs Sasuke is one of many among them. Group B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam[/quote] Lelouch vs. Suzaku. Sure, they are melodramatic, but they all the intensity and everything you need in a rivalry. The ideological struggle between Lelouch and Suzaku is also an interesting one. Also Code Geass may be a train wreck, but this rivalry is one of the driving forces behind why many came back for more. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Would have voted Friday, but the fast server was having trouble, and then I was busy over the weekend.
A-29 Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs Naraku Voting for: L vs Light Because: The Death Note rivalry has a little more complexity, and the sides are more evenly matched, making things more interesting. A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! Voting for: San vs Eboshi Because: I'm pretty much a broken record at this point, but I favor the fairly balanced ideological conflict against the simpler DRRR! one (Shizuo hates Izaya because he's a jerk, Izaya enjoys toying with Shizuo because it's funny). B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z Choosing: Naruto vs Sasuke Because I find the way Naruto and Sasuke transitioned from friends to enemies more interesting than Goku and Vegeta doing the opposite. B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam Choosing: Amuro vs Char Because
Pretty much the exact opposite of what I'm looking for then. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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All of the first clips of every match of these rounds are not working.
Group A-29 Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Both sides of this rivalry want to be the hunter. We all know what will happen if one becomes the hunted. To ensure that does not happen, both sides employ all sorts of camouflages, traps, and surprises to one up the other. My vote goes to: Light Yagami vs. L. Group A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! I am not sure who to vote for here but the Durarara!! supporting arguments have swayed me. My vote goes to: Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara. Group B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z It is hard to tell which is the better rivalry since both are shonen titles. There is a lot of fighting, talking, and explaining in both titles. They each have their own unique backstories. But the Naruto rivalry get the vote here. Being former friends make this rivalry brings this to a personal level. My vote goes to: Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha. Group B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam Did the current state of the world (their's) cause them to be enemies or were they just victims of their respective circumstances? Nevertheless, both have differing means to meet their ends. With this, they battle in Knightmare Frames, politically, and ideally. My vote goes to: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi. |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group A-29
Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Great clip for Light Yagami vs. L this week. It shows a pivotal moment where the two rivals meet, and it shows exactly why they should win this round. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku is a time honored rivalry, but this is where it ends for them. Group A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! Man, both these rivalries are pretty weak considering their appearances together in their respective series are few and far between. I guess I'll vote for San vs. Lady Eboshi. Their rivalry seems filled with more deep seeded hatred and is far more intense. Group B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z These two rivalries are very similar. Both are decent. I'll have to vote for Goku vs. Vegeta just because I prefer watching their intense battles over Naruto and Sasuke's melodramatic battles. Group B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam Still voting for Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi. For now I think they are the better rivalry. Next round, I'm not so sure. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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I was more or less thinking of abstaining this time around, but never mind.
Group A-29 Light Yagami vs. L, Death Note vs. Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, Inuyasha franchise Voting for: Light Yagami vs. L There have been a couple of decent arguments in favor of Team Inuyasaha vs. Naraku, but I still don't believe it makes for a rivalry that's quite as interesting and entertaining as Light vs. L. Sure, Death Note is certainly a very melodramatic show, in spite of its relatively realistic setting, but I don't believe that is an inherent negative for the purposes of this tournament. The cat and mouse game between these two opponents stands on its own quite well, as far as anime standards are concerned, in terms of both style and substance. Even the exaggerated motions, phrases or camera angles give it a sense of self-importance that fits the constant one-upmanship of this rivalry and the very nature of its source material as a whole. Group A-30 San vs. Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke vs. Shizuo Heiwajima vs. Izaya Orihara, Durarara!! Voting for: San vs. Lady Eboshi Going by the arguments in this and, for that matter, previous rounds, I'll accept that this conflict has a more interesting context and set of implications, even if it's not necessarily the most exciting in absolute terms. Group B-29 Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise vs. Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z Voting for: Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha This is less of a vote in favor of Naruto and Sasuke than it is a vote against Goku and Vegeta, who certainly represent a very iconic rivalry within the shounen fighting genre that gave us some memorable moments, but suffer from an increasing lack of relevance, all things considered, after gradually losing a lot of focus. Like I've previously mentioned, Dragon Ball Z would have been a much better show if it had consistently attempted to further the Goku vs. Vegeta conflict instead of merely defeating the next powerful big bad of the arc. The Buu saga tried really hard to present a conclusion to their competition, that is true, but somehow I've never been entirely happy with the results. It felt like Toriyama was telling us Goku had already become too powerful off-screen, period, and there was nothing Vegeta could have possibly done to counter that. I've heard that GT tried to bring some tension back, perhaps, but I doubt it really helped. Group B-30 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam Voting for: Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable Despite my own personal preferences, this is actually, at least from my perspective, more of an interesting match than what the voting record seems to indicate thus far. While we can find a few precedents or rough prototypes for their respective character archetypes -and particularly Char Aznable's- in earlier mecha series, such as Tadao Nagahama's "Romantic" trilogy, this specific type of conflict still laid the groundwork for how rivalries would be handled in future Gundam properties and, generally speaking, throughout the Real Robot genre. Even those later series that did not simply copy the interactions between Char and Amuro nevertheless failed to completely escape from its influence, directly or indirectly. In that regard one could ostensibly argue the rivalry between Lelouch and Suzaku would never have existed without the conflict between the pilot of the White Devil and the Red Comet. If we were to measure the impact or influence of Mobile Suit Gundam and determine the winner of this contest using only those factors, then this would be a foregone conclusion. There are very, very few rivalries in this tournament that can boast of having such lasting consequences, in and out of their fictional universe. At the same time, I can't say it's not without certain problematic issues. While their mutual animosity does grow, there are significant periods of time where neither Char nor Amuro are particularly interested in fighting each other, because often their first priority is to survive the war or carry out their missions. This isn't necessarily bad, from a storytelling perspective, but it reduces the amount of time actively dedicated to the rivalry as a source of conflict, at least until the climax of the original story. The Char's Counterattack film is simultaneously an appropriate resolution yet also a slightly weird and unexpected one, especially in terms of how Char's grudge suddenly came back after its apparent settlement in Zeta Gundam, for reasons that can be rationalized but were never truly explained during the movie (or even elsewhere). In fact, it can be said that the duels themselves were arguably better than the actual ending, which has a poignant moment but otherwise relies on some very strange conversation points. What can be said about Lelouch vs. Suzaku then? More than what you'd think, actually, but I'll try to keep this short. On a conceptual level, it took the basic gist of the Char vs. Amuro rivalry and gave it a very different spin, focusing on "Char" (Lelouch) and making both him and "Amuro" (Suzaku) interact on a more regular basis, both in and outside their respectives roles. This involved a number of interesting modifications too, of which the main one would be increasing the moral ambiguity of their conflict. This definitely made it unusual, if not entirely unique, within the genre. None of that would work if we only saw the most representative or even melodramatic moments such as those in the clips, mind you, because it also required a fair amount of setup and characterization. Even when there were a couple of obvious rough spots or rushed developments, particularly during the second half of the story, I never really felt there was a lasting "gap" like the one between Char's attitude in Zeta and how he started acting during the climatic movie. Finally, on the level of pure spectacle, I consistently looked forward to seeing whatever plans Lelouch came up with and how Suzaku would counter or interrupt them. If it can be said that a good rivalry should be the main attraction of any given series, then in this case I can certainly agree. That much wouldn't be enough to earn my support thus far, however, if the rest of the rivalry had little or nothing of interest. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, I honestly feel that it would be unfair to not give Char vs. Amuro more credit than what has been recognized and provided up to this point, so my vote will ultimately go there. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18362 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Groups A and B Semifinals is now closed.
The 14 votes were a disappointing regression after things had picked up a little over the last couple of times. Results: A-29: Light vs. L obliterated Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku, 13-1. A-30: San vs. Eboshi slips by Shizuo vs. Izaya, 8-6. B-29: Naruto vs. Sasuke narrowly overpowers Goku vs. Vegeta, 8-6. B-30: Lelouch vs. Suzaku defeats Amuro Ray vs. Char, 10-4. As expected, A-29 was a blow-out, B-30 wasn't close, and the other two went down to the wire; the last voter could have tied one or both of the inside matches had he voted the other way on either. Both of those matches were so close that they saw multiple lead changes and the margin of victory was the biggest lead either ever saw. Now for the second half of the Group Semifinals. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18362 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Groups C and D Semifinals is now closed.
Results can be found here.
Yeah, that was my fault. ccdx and I have a long-standing system for switching over the older clips and I just forgot to do it last time. We won’t see a repeat of that this time. All four of these matches look very interesting to me, especially C-29; the Princess Tutu rivals have been utterly dominant so far but this is, by far, their strongest competition yet. Both also have heavy overlap amongst their ardent supporters. I’ll be a little surprise if any of these is a blow-out. Oh, and if you're seeing this within the first hour that it's posted: new video clips may not be up yet. Still working on that. Group C-29 Princess Tutu vs. Princess Krahe, Princess Tutu vs. Yang Wen-Li vs. Reinhard von Lohengramm, Legend of the Galactic Heroes Group C-30 Kouga vs. Iga clans, Basilisk vs. Mugen vs. Jin, Samurai Champloo Group D-29 The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket Group D-30 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go Last edited by Key on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18362 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Video Clips are now updated.
I'm going to hold off for a little while on voting because I'm not at all sure how I want to pick D-29, so I want to see what others think about it first. For C-30, though, I strongly encourage those unfamiliar with Basilisk to watch that new clip. The video quality isn't great, but it shows beautifully the depth and intensity of that rivalry as well as the forces that are struggling in vain to stop it. Mugen and Jin may have a neat rivalry going on, but at no point in their series is their opposition or character dynamic as strong as what you see in clips like this. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3950 Location: New York state. |
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Match C-29: Princess Tutu vs Princess Krahe (Princess Tutu)
A very interesting matchup for this set considering both are among the forum favorites here. I'll stick with what I know on account I've yet to see Legend of the Galactic Heroes. But I can picture this match coming down to the wire based on both titles' reputations here. Match C-30: Kouga vs Iga clans (Basilisk) This match should be an easy win for the Kouga and Iga as Mugen and Jin's rivalry is more driven by clashing personalities compared to the personal animosity and history that the two ninja clans in Basilisk have towards one another. Match D-29: The Elrics vs Homunculi (Full Metal Alchemist) The degree to which the feud between the Elrics and Homunculi does vary between the two different TV titles where the original series fleshes out the Homunculi to give them justifiable means for their actions while Brotherhood makes their conflict with the Elrics a black and white moral affair. However, the rivalry's conflict still remains the same between both titles: the Homunculi are manipulating political and military events behind the scenes to get what they want and those plans in part involve using the Elrics. The two brothers eventually find out of this and set out to thwart the plans of the Homunculi. The conflicts in both titles are grand and genuinely heated as they do raise moral issues connected to the events perpetrated from the manipulations of the Homunculi and keep you latched on which side will prevail in the end. In particular with the original series, the rivalry becomes more heated when the Elrics come to learn of the Homunculi spoiler[being created from the remains of those close to them.] I could picture some people tempted to oppose the Elrics/ Homunculi rivalry based on the typical black and white moral setup that Brotherhood portrays it as. But the original series gives the rivalry a more mature portrayal with elements of grey morality coming off the tragic developments one comes to know of the Homunculi, making them have more justifiable cause for their actions. Match D-30: Hikaru vs Akira (Hikaru no Go) I'll be ready to spar with Key for his reasoning to oppose this unique rivalry whenever he gets the chance to vote. So I guess I'll open up with the jabs first. 
Ryoko and Ayeka's rivalry is certainly the defining rivalry to see coming out of harem anime where both characters are entertaining to see spar with one another, both verbally and physically. And depending on continuity, the two also have an earlier history with one another where Ryoko had attacked Jurai against her will in the OAVs earning Ayeka's personal hatred throughout the first OAV series and the two apparently having known one another as children in Tenchi Universe. The franchise was also good at making sure that the bickering between the two never got stale as the two girls often found themselves forced to cooperate with one another when faced with any enemy threats or dealing with other romantic rivals within the harem. However, the rivalry in many of its continuities does suffer from a lack of development as the two girls, regardless of their efforts, quite often find themselves still in the same status quo when it comes to wanting Tenchi to choose between them and seeing them as more than extended members of his family, as well as trying to get an edge over one another. While the rivalry is effectively conveyed from a comedic standpoint, it lacks any development when it comes to delivering on the romantic element of it. Development is certainly not lacking in the rivalry between Hikaru and Akira. As I raved enough about in the previous round, both boys contribute to the personal growth of one another and each viewed one another as worthy rivals with the desire to face one another in the game of Go. I'm a bit short on time now from my end to elaborate more on Hikaru and Akira. But just as a nod to those who didn't vote in Group D two weeks ago or forgot about what I discussed, here's part of my argument where I discussed how the two boys contributed to the personal growth of one another:
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