Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18572 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group C is now done.
With 17 votes in, the much-delayed results: C-25: The Two Princesses obliterate Kamina/Simon vs. Viral, 17-0 FLAWLESS VICTORY x2!!! C-26: Yang Wen Li vs. Reinhard over Sousuke vs. Gauron, 13-4. C-27: Kouga vs. Iga ninja clans edges Maya vs. Ayumi, 9-8. C-28: Mugen vs. Jin outduels Lupin vs. Zenigata, 10-7. So two matches were close - C-27 and C-28 never saw what I'd call decisive leads - and two were blowouts. C-27 definitely swung on a couple of vote changes, which has not been a common occurrence in the last couple of tournaments. Oh, and for the record, Tutu vs. Krahe now has precisely one vote against them in three rounds. That is, by far, the best record posted by any participant in any of our tournaments over that same time frame. Since a lot of the LOGH diehards are also Tutu diehards, I will be very curious to see how the top of the bracket plays out next round. Anyway, the next round should be up shortly. EDIT: Corrected the Princess Tutu score. Last edited by Key on Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18572 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group D is now closed.
Results can be found here. Gods, this has been a busy couple of days! Although the Group is finally going up, the video clips probably won’t be up on the Guide entries until sometime later on Wednesday (i.e. anywhere from 9 to 17 hours from the time of this post depending on my fickle work schedule); I have them, just not the time to update the Guide files to include them. Group D-25 The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Isamu Dyson vs. Guld Bowman, Macross Plus Group D-26 Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Guts vs. Griffith, Berserk Group D-27 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Vash the Stampede vs. Million Knives, Trigun Group D-28 Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go vs. Kazuma vs. Ryuhou, sCRYed Last edited by Key on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3991 Location: New York state. |
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Match D-25: The Elrics vs Homunculi (Full Metal Alchemist)
I believe the main clash of this series is too heated and personal to vote off this early in the tournament. Match D-26: Guts and Griffith (Berserk) A rather tough one to judge here. Both are rather tense rivalries and both pairings find themselves forced to work together at points while rather uneasy with one another. But whereas the rivalry between Kyo and Yuki is due to misunderstandings between the two, the conflict between Guts and Griffith is due to difference in personal beliefs where Guts finds himself at odds over how Griffith does his business in wiping out those that threaten his status in Midland's armies spoiler[by appointing him as a personal assassin.] In addition while Guts comes to strongly value the Band of the Hawk as companions as he spends more time with them, Griffith cares more for trying to work his way up the ranks of Midland's royalty than his comrades. This especially becomes apparent in the shocking finale of Berserk that serves to further drive a wedge between Griffith and Guts. For these reasons, I shall continue sticking with the Guts and Griffith rivalry. Match D-27: Vash vs Knives (Trigun) I'm anticipating Ryoko and Ayeka's rivalry denting the clash between the two brothers since we don't see much of Knives until late in the show's run. So I might as well think of this as a mercy vote. Match D-28: Hikaru Shindo vs Akira Toya (Hikaru no Go) Kazuma and Ryuho's rivalry appears legitimate at first during sCRYed's first half until Ryuhou learns that he spoiler[had been getting duped into doing HOLD's dirty work] which turns the rivalry into pointless squabbling and a senseless power battle in the show's final episode. Having seen Hikaru no Go in its entirety recently, I can definitely get a sense of tension and competitiveness between the central rivalry between Hikaru and Akira. Both boys acknowledge one another as worthy adversaries and strive to improve their abilities in Go so they can be prepared to face one another in competition and prove that they will not be taken lightly when facing other competitors. Hikaru's desire to improve his abilities in Go are so that he can be acknowledged as Akira's equal instead of being a medium for Sai to use in playing the game while Akira uses the opportunity in becoming a professional Go player as a way to tell Hikaru to come and challenge him if he is prepared for the long, challenging road ahead. I have to stick with the Go players as the better rivalry in this match. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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What? I thought there were 17 votes for the two Princesses. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group D-25
The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Isamu Dyson vs. Guld Bowman, Macross Plus The Elrics vs. Homunculi I don't feel strongly about either. I'm voting for FMA, because I'm familiar with it. Group D-26 Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Guts vs. Griffith, Berserk Guts vs. Griffith Yuki and Kyo are fairly good rivals, but, as far as I remember, their rivalry was triggered by the curse and Akito. And it's more of a misunderstanding than anything. The rivalry between Guts and Griffith seems to be the better choice. Group D-27 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Vash the Stampede vs. Million Knives, Trigun Ayeka vs. Ryoko It's a vote against Vash vs. Million Knives's vapid rivalry. Group D-28 Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go vs. Kazuma vs. Ryuhou, sCRYed Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya I would need to hear really strong arguments for Kazuma vs. Ryuhou to vote against Hikaru vs. Akira. As for Hikaru vs. Akira, I don't know what else I can add to what was said about them in the previous rounds. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Group D-25
Voting for: The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise Another reputation vote for me: this is a rivalry I've heard lots about, versus one I only know about from this tournament. Group D-26 Voting for: Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket There have been lots of arguments against Guts and Griffith and so, although I have voted for them until this point, I feel that this is as far as they should go. Also, Yuki and Kyo have an excellent rivalry that I believe does deserve to go another round (though I don't think they'll be able to beat off FMA). Group D-27 Voting for: Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise My inner Trigun-fan is not happy with this but, while I love that rivalry, I think for the most part it is just not directly present enough to warrant them going farther. Sure, you could think of Legato as an extension of Knives but I think that gives the latter too much credit and the former not enough. So I'm voting against them now, since what I've heard about their competition has been fairly convincing. Group D-28 Voting for: Kazuma vs. Ryuhou, sCRYed Another vote based on which rivalry personally sounds more interesting/engaging to me. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Didn't you know? 14 is the new 17. Anyway, minigame results. Ggultra got a perfect score this week to pull slightly ahead of Olliff, who had tied up first place last week. C-27 ended up a lot closer than minigame guesses predicted; it was more expected to be a landslide for the Basilisk rivals. The other three were pretty close to the minigame predictions. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3991 Location: New York state. |
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Only if you want to be in denial. 
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18572 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Ugh, the score has been corrected so that I don't have to continue to listen to lame jokes.
Also, the video clips should all now be up and running. After looking at them, I strongly encourage anyone who isn't familiar with Macross Plus to check out the Isamu/Guld clip. It may change your mind about totally writing off those rivals in that match-up. And now for the business side: Group D-25 The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Isamu Dyson vs. Guld Bowman, Macross Plus The FMA rivalry is a pretty large one and will doubtless win, but is really truly a rivalry? The Elrics certainly see the Homonculi as one of their biggest obstacles, but do the Homonculi actually see the Elrics as much more than nuisances or pawns to be manipulated? This is, I think, one place where a complaint used against some "rivals" who have been eliminated earlier - i.e. that they are more hero and villain than true rivals - has to be brought up. The same certainly cannot be said for Isamu vs. Guld; while Guld sometimes looks like the bad guy, he isn't actually a villain. Their basic philosophies and approaches are starkly contrasting and they are fierce rivals on both romantic and professional levels. The origins of their dispute give their rivalry an added layer of depth, too. They embody the spirit of the tournament better than their better-known opponents do. Group D-26 Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Guts vs. Griffith, Berserk Still not entirely buying the Guts/Griffith thing, and they have had significant opposition even since the nominations phase. Yuki vs. Kyo is also a worthy foe, as their rivalry is also beyond dispute. Group D-27 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Vash the Stampede vs. Million Knives, Trigun Ayeka vs. Ryoko is simply better-established, has more screen time, and is arguably more entertaining. Regardless of what version of the franchise we're talking about, these two are fiercely at odds. Group D-28 Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go vs. Kazuma vs. Ryuhou, sCRYed The Hikaru no Go rivalry certainly seems to have a lot of merit, but Kazuma vs. Ryuhou is the Real Deal. No one can get under each other's skins like these two can, and nowhere will you see a sharper or more conflicting personality contrast. The fact that the series devotes its entire last episode - after all the other plot threads have been settled - just to them happily battling to see, once and for all, which one is stronger should speak volumes about the intensity and durability of this rivalry. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7360 |
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New South Park is on, yay!
Group D-25 The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise I'm only halfway through the manga, but it is a decent rivalry, not the best in group D, but I'll vote for them. Group D-26 Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket Gah, two I'm unfamiliar with, and on the Fruits Basket front, once vols 1-8 arrive in the mail, I'll be reading it, so I'm avoiding the anime too, curses! I've heard some Guts v Griffith complaints in the past, and both anime have the problem of the manga being far longer, so I'll go with the Sohmas for now, but I'm open to be swayed. (Why does Sohma remind me so of Persona 3? Isn't that the item that gives back all health to everyone or something? Damn, this is gonna annoy me...) Group D-27 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise Hmm, well Ayeka and Ryoko are certainly at each others throats al the time. But my main complaint with Vash v Knives is that there's only a few eps about it, it doesn't really give us enough time to get attached. Maybe the manga goes further on this, but the manga is near incomprehensible to read so I'll never know. Group D-28 Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go Still the strongest duo in this group. I feel like I've stated most of my reasons in the past two rounds, but for me, being both rivals and friends means a lot, because name the last time one of you guys went easy on your friends while playing Brawl just because you're friends with them. If anything, it'd be rude to offend them by not giving it your all and these two do that here too. But before they become friends, they're still rivals, not out to kill each other or send the other to the shadow realm, this isn't Yugioh, but their fights, few and far between they may be, are just as epic. But for me, always thinking about the other, no matter where they may be, is the sign of the sort of rivalry that's hard to find and that drives the characters to be who they are. Yet once again, another easy vote from me. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6607 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Group D-25
The Elrics v Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Isamu Dyson v Guld Bowman, Macross Plus The Elrics v Homunculi rivalry is genuine. The adversaries are competing to be first to control the Philosopher’s Stone and once Alphonse becomes that object of desire, the fighting ramps up violently. The rivalry between Isamu and Guld is no doubt intense but there is much more to a rivalry scenario than just the conflict. The resolution is just as important and here Macross Plus fails badly. Its execution is lame and the implications are appalling. In the midst of one of their massive infrastructure destroying stoushes Guld suddenly recovers a repressed memory – he once raped Isamu’s then girlfriend Myung – the female lead who is traumatised by said rape. So what does he do? He apologises to Isamu – the former boyfriend, remember - and all is forgiven. The two then suddenly become best mates. Huh? What about the real victim? It gets worse - Guld then sacrifices his life in atonement for the wrong he has done to Isamu so the latter can go stop the big bad, Sharon Apple. At one point the script even tries to invoke sympathy for Guld for the shocking memory he has suppressed. The film seems to be regarding the supposed wrong done to Isamu as far more significant than the crime against Myung. I cannot sufficiently express my disgust at this medieval thinking. Group D-26 Yuki Sohma v Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Guts v Griffith, Berserk Of the two, I’ve only seen Beserk. The rivalry between Guts and Griffith rarely gets beyond a simmer until the last few episodes and, then, once Griffith unleashes his supernatural powers, Guts is impotent. The power of Berserk doesn’t lie in the rivalry between the two, nor does it lie in how bad-ass Guts is. Rather, it’s in its bleak vision of human nature and in Guts’s utter despair brought about largely by the choices he made. Despite the Fruits Basket clip successfully putting me off ever watching the series, the Yuki v Kyo rivalry at least seems genuine. Group D-27 Ryoko v Ayeka, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Vash the Stampede v Million Knives, Trigun The Ryoko v Ayeka rivalry is memorable. So much so that one of the major weaknesses of the franchise is that the rivalry remains ornamental rather than central to the series. If only the franchise threw out the dull intergalactic or supernatural plot lines and concentrated on stories with the two women trying to outwit, humiliate or inflict grievous pain on each other, then it would be much better for it. Still, I far prefer it to the brief rivalry between Vash and his brother. Both shows are pretty brainless but at least Ryoko and Ayeka generated some laughs. Group D-28 Hikaru Shindou v Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go vs. Kazuma v Ryuhou, sCRYed I’ve not watched either series so I’m going by the clips, other people’s arguments and my own preferences. What I’ve seen so far indicates that sCRYed is yet another superhero brawl series aimed at a teenage audience. It’s ho-hum. No matter how dramatic it may try to be, if I’m not engaged then the rivalry fails. I suppose it’s an aesthetic choice in the end. (It’s sort of like comparing rugby with cricket. One is brawling; the other is finesse. Both are intense, both require skill and strength, both have tremendous rivalries, both can seriously injure you if you let your guard down. I find one of them – rugby - tedious in the extreme. Conversely, cricket puts many people to sleep.) The clip for Hikaru v Akira is the only one of the two that held my interest and the only one that would encourage me to the watch the particular series. |
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Group D-25
The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Isamu Dyson vs. Guld Bowman, Macross Plus The Elrics vs. Homunculi. I haven't seen Brotherhood so Im judging this completely from the first series, but the intensity and heart-ache on both sides wins my vote. Group D-26 Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Guts vs. Griffith, Berserk Guts vs. Griffith. Im not a big fan of either of these rivalries, but I've always thought Yuki and Kyo's rivalry was overrated. In the last round Mugen vs. Jin had a couple arguments against it saying theirs was only a personality clash and nothing more. Yuki vs. Kyo is just that; a personality clash that is even less intense than Mugen and Jin's because they aren't fighting for their lives. Group D-27 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Vash the Stampede vs. Million Knives, Trigun Ayeka vs. Ryoko. Agh I really hate voting against Trigun but I have to go with the stronger rivalry here which is definitely Ayeka vs. Ryoko. These two started fighting the first time they met and even though they both pretend to be the victim of the other, they will go to any lows to get the upper hand. Group D-28 Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go vs. Kazuma vs. Ryuhou, sCRYed[/quote] Hikaru vs. Akira. Kazuma and Ryuhou have a great rivalry going on, one of the types I really go for too, but they lose to Hikaru vs. Akira. Both rivalries are one of the central points of their respective series, but as intense as sCRYed can be, Hikaru no Go is even more so. While Kazuma vs. Ryuhou is a massive power vs. power battle akin to Goku and Vegeta's rivalry, Hikaru and Akira fight their battles internally and on the Go board. Honestly I didn't think I'd like a show about a strategy game that I had never even heard of before, but the rivalry between Akira and Hikaru draws you in and keeps you coming back. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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D-25
The Elrics vs. Homunculi, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Isamu Dyson vs. Guld Bowman, Macross Plus Choosing: Isamu vs Guld Because I'm with Key on this one; the Elrics and the homunculi are more just enemies than rivals. The homunculi mostly treat the brothers as pawns in their machinations, the Elrics must oppose them because they are unquestionably evil. There isn't really much of a personal motivation or ideological dispute here, it's a question of obvious right and wrong. The Isamu/Guld rivalry has a more intense personal motivation to it, and the emotional aspect of it is of stronger consequence to the series. While errinundra does raise valid issues about the sexist message the resolution takes, I feel that can be separated enough from the important aspects of the conflict to vote for it here. D-26 Yuki Sohma vs. Kyo Sohma, Fruits Basket vs. Guts vs. Griffith, Berserk Choosing: Yuki vs Kyo Because As far as I can tell, Guts and Griffith's rivalry doesn't really become apparent until the end of the series, at which point it mostly doesn't matter.
Yes, just the curse that defines and shapes their lives and existences. And while it may have been triggered by a misunderstanding, there is plentiful resentment of the other from both sides: Kyo is an outsider in respect to both normal people and the zodiac members, and Yuki's apparent privileged position among both fosters deep resentment; Yuki meanwhile is jealous of what he sees as Kyo's ability to fight against the circumstances, as well as the ease with which he connects with other people (once Tohru enters the picture). D-27 Ayeka vs. Ryoko, Tenchi Muyo! franchise vs. Vash the Stampede vs. Million Knives, Trigun Choosing: Ayeka vs Ryoko Because I haven't really seen any of the Tenchi franchise, but it seems to generate enough support on its own merit. Besides which, I have had my misgivings about the Trigun entry for a while, the most obvious complaint being its lack of presence. Additionally, the ideological aspect is perhaps too overly simplistic to consider it competitive with other ideological entries in this tournament. Whether the nature of man is good or evil is a worthwhile subject, but Vash's position is too naive and Knives carries his choice to too vindictive a conclusion. D-28 VOTE CHANGE Hikaru Shindou vs. Akira Touya, Hikaru no Go vs. Kazuma vs. Ryuhou, sCRYed Choosing: Kazuma vs Ryuhou Because Reconsidered after seeing the following post. Last edited by Dorcas_Aurelia on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18572 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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To be clear, my comments are not directed to Dorcas_Aurelia specifically, but to supporters of these rivals in general. I have seen a lot of talk which plays up the "depth" of the Akira/Hikaru rivalry and pooh-poohs sCRYed because it looks like just standard shonen fare which is only about fights. While that is, admittedly, a big part of it, Kazuma/Ryuhou's conflict runs way deeper than that. These are characters that have stark contrasts in attitude and philosophy that run deeper, and are more fundamental, than almost any other duo in this tournament. Even when circumstances dictate that they must work together, mutual tension still exists. These are people who would be at odds even if their powers weren't an issue. I have not seen any arguments so far which indicate that Akira/Hikaru are even close to a match for them in that regard.
This argument, which was made in favor of Hikaru/Akira, also applies just as well to Kazuma/Ryuhou. Once they know each other's names, these two are regularly on each other's minds even when they're not directly conflicting.
I must disagree; I don't think that revelation really changes anything. Although that may negate the initial reason for them coming into conflict, it does nothing to change their status as rivals or the fact that they have stark philosophical differences. You don't change your entire personality just because of something like that. Anyway, I'm getting the sense that I'm fighting a losing battle here and that people just prefer the more cerebral conflict in Hikaru no Go (which makes Light/L unbeatable if voters' logic stays consistent, doesn't it?), so this will probably be the last arguments I post on this match-up. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6607 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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The deeper conflict - is that the conflict of the individual v group, freedom v conformity, or something else? Is the conflict an illustration of what the anime is saying about society? |
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