Forum - View topicGhost in the Shell (1995 movie).
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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So I still consider myself as fairly new to anime fandom, and decided that I should educate myself by watching some older anime. This morning I watched Ghost in the Shell, the 1995 movie and it really impressed me with its direction and execution. This easily could have become just another robots surpassing humanity movie, but it is anything but ordinary.
From here on out this will be spoilertastic so if you haven't seen this and don't want it spoiled don't read. Motoko's thoughts about existence resonated with me greatly. I have mentioned to a friend, mostly jokingly, that if this world didn't exist, there would be no way to know, would there? Maybe in 'reality', I'm sitting in a mental hospital smiling to myself, not knowing that me typing on a computer, free and with the sun on my hair is just a hallucination, a delusion I've dreamed up to escape the harsh reality of 'real' life. Or possibly this is a fantasy implanted by someone else, whose intentions are virtually limitless, or what Im seeing are actually memories of things I've already experienced as an intruder of my mind sifts through my experiences. It is human nature to explore and question our surroundings, testing their limits and discovering how things work. So it is natural for us to be drawn to and repelled by, at the same time, the one thing we have never been able to figure out or make any significant progress with, and that is the nature of our own existence and our perceptions of the world around us. Motoko struggles with the idea of the soul, pondering that if a soul (or a 'ghost') is not unique to humans, than what is the purpose of being human? When she hears that the Puppet Master program has evolved its own ghost, she fiercely desires to dive into it, though doesn't say why. From her earlier musings, we can infer that she wants to confirm or disprove the existence of a self-created ghost, most likely to help herself with her own existencial crisis. Then when the Puppet Master proposes they merge, this presents a new option. I was almost positive that Matoko, after deep thought and real consideration, would refuse. I guess I should be happy that the director did the unexpected and had them merge but.... I was very disappointed in the character of Matoko for merging with the Puppet Master. She was doubting the reality of her own origin and existence, and thoughts like that with no answers are heavy weights to bare. But it seems to me that Matoko chose the easy way out. Instead of dealing with her uncertainty, and fear that she was created artificially and didn't 'truly' exist, she chose to merge with the Puppet Master and cease to exist in her previous form. That is like someone with a fatal disease who kills themselves to 'beat' the disease and obtain a semblance of control. Believe me when I say I have a rough idea of how Matoko was feeling, coming from someone who has thought deeply about all these things (although I obviously don't have the added challenge of a blurred line between human and machine lol), but the impression I got was that merging with the Puppet Master was an escape, the door that appeared at the last minute enabling her to run away from her problems. Thoughts? |
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Que_Tal
 Posts: 80 |
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WOW!
my brain hurts from reading your op....i feel like William Hurt in Altered States...i think i may be transforming into a neonic glowing primate from reading it. uh....who knows why motoko decided to merge with p master. i understand the whole, choose death, or choose merging with said other persona dilemna....but i just assumed that when faced with death that in the end the notion _the natural law based desire "to continue to exist", just plain old won over _"the vanity of individualism" in motoko's eyes. thats what i assumed. or maybe she just wanted to explore what p master was offering her which was a new way of looking at things and she seemed sorta dissatisfied with her life up to that point, or at least her outlook on life in general. or maybe she was tempted in upgrading her mechanical status. i don't know!!!! i'll let someone else who's waaaay smarter than me answer what her 'merging with puppet master reasons' were. *reaching for migraine headache medication, NOW.* |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9973 Location: Virginia |
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While I can't answer your question, I do suggest you check out the manga version which came first. It sets up the ending a bit different and may give you more information to work with.
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Player No. 3
 Posts: 209 Location: San Antonio, Texas |
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Warning: Unmarked spoilers
I quite like you analysis, but I think it was perfectly natural for the Major to choose to merge. As you said, she was in a deep existential crisis. I'd say she had a certain death motive. In fact, she participates in an activity (diving) in order to come as close to death as she can. However, I feel she is doing this to confirm her existence. What other way to prove you are alive than to come close to the extreme opposite? But she is also curious as to whether you can surpass humanity while still having the qualities of a human When given the opportunity to merge consciousnesses with the Puppet Master, I see it as her taking the ultimate leap to answer her question by almost eradicating her self. Of course, I'm barely scratching the surface here. There are huge philosophical debates over whether or not you are still you if your consciousness is moved from another body, lest merged with another. |
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Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Lol, sry. After I wrote that I was thinking 'dang, that's pretty long... and convoluted too, I'll be lucky if I get a single response  '. But ya, I've been thinking on this a lot, and at first I was really pissed thinking Motoko merged just to escape her problems, but from reading your and others posts, and just thinking about the events, I realized she didn't really have any other option, huh? Even if she didn't want to merge, it was that or death, and even though she was flirting with death by diving, there's a huge difference between flirting and going all the way =D. I understand her decision a little better I think, but... hm, still not really happy with her choice.
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Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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That sounds good, I'll do that =) Even though I was miffed with Motoko, the movie was great and now I want to check out the entire franchise.
"Death defines life. Without death, life would have no meaning, and so we would have no purpose." I forgot where I heard that now, but ever since I heard it it's never been far from my thoughts. I think you're right, a huge part of the merge seems to have been plain and simple curiosity. From the moment Motoko heard that the Puppet Master had a ghost, she wanted to dive in and find out if there really was one, if it was as developed as a human's, if it could feel like a human. Another part would be to get her answer on whether she exists or not. If she didn't 'truly' exist than she wouldn't be able to merge, and would have her answer once and for at that she was not a 'real' person.[/quote] |
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~~EpiC~~
 Posts: 243 |
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Lol, its really funny, when I saw this thread pop up Saturday, I almost replied, because I really wanted to, but I really didn't have the time. And now, tris8, your bump has forced my hand. It really is a shame that this movie has never had a thread before. And it really should because Oshii is one of the most intellectual directors, well, period. Well, where should I begin...
Indeed, this question has been going on for a while now in many forms as early as Descartes (with the original), but basically the idea that relates to Sci-Fi and Ghost in the Shell, The Brain in a Vat, was officially recognized with Hilary Putnam. Its the entire idea behind the Matrix. In any case, I like where you are going with this and I'll offer up my two cents. I might go all over the place since I'm a bit tired, so bare with me lol. I'll also try to make this as easy to read and non-convoluted as possible. Let's see if I can achieve this. I think a big thing about Ghost in the Shell that's really important to keep in mind, and that is integral to GitS, is that Motoko is almost completely machine. Central to the story is that the line between what is human and what is not is completely blurred. This brings up the very important idea of the singularity. The singularity is the moment when being human and being machine is impossible to distinguish. Basically, AI has reached the point where it has emotions just like humans, humans are mostly machine, and everything is "connected". While regular diseases will basically end, hacking will be the next problem. This concept of singularity has been debated heavily recently, and some big theorists are expecting it to come very soon in real life. Soon as in, 2017 soon. And before we have crap like flying cars and such. In any case, again, Oshii, in 1995, was already well ahead of practically everyone in entertainment in this area, and honestly, as far as I can remember, he is probably the closest I can think of in recreating this so succinctly to an accurate possible reality (no flying cars, etc..). Though I have been watching anime for a while, I just saw this movie 6 or so months ago, and I was thoroughly impressed by this. But the idea to take from all of this is that GitS's world is "posthuman". Organic bodies are increasingly being replaced by both technological bodies, and informational bodies (which are still physical as it is rooted in the informational structures of the world). Can the body be the grounding of identity at all? (where the name comes from: the body or "shell" which holds the mind or "ghost"). Okay, so yes, picking up from where I left off, Motoko is completely machine with the exception of a very small part of her brain stem. Again, the body is only viewed as a shell for the mind. (The question of embodiment). But really, she barely has any mind left at all. Can the theory really hold up anymore? She is able to switch bodies and does many times. In fact, she doesn't even have a body of her own. Her body is completely owned by Section 9. In one part of the story, she is having a conversation with Batou if I remember correctly, and she points out that while she is apparently "human" she is completely owned by Section 9. Technically she could quit, but in doing so she gives up her body, and thus she would die. The point is she can't quit even though she is "human", and she is basically a machine in that she has to follow Section 9s will... or perish. She doesn't have a choice. Also, as a cyborg, she needs to be fixed with regular maintenance or she will die But yes, she does struggle heavily with the question of identity. My favorite scene in the movie is when she basically just traveling from portion to portion for like 6 minutes. She she's a cyborg of the same model as her, and there is no dialogue, just Kawaii's excellent soundtrack and powerful images. Continuing onwards here, the question is can the body even be viewed as the grounding of identity "ghost"? Or does the "ghost" provide the grounding? Or if not what? But the struggle with identity makes Ghost in the Shell very paradoxical in nature. What Motoko finally does is she decides to combine with the Puppet Master. I definitely do not consider this a "cop out" at all. In fact, I see it as the opposite. She takes a huge gamble here. She can become something more than she is, which also brings in the idea of "becoming more than human." This idea is present in a lot of anime, the idea of becoming a "perfect being". But, the cost for this power could be immense. If she guesses wrong, she will cease to be herself. And for someone in an "existential crisis" this would be the LAST thing you would want to do. In fact, losing what it means to be yourself is probably the biggest fear of humanity. People believe in a God because they don't want to fade into nothingness when they die, they don't want to lose there-selves forever. Doing what she did took an IMMENSE amount of bravery and for her to do it, she had to believe in herself IMMENSELY. She had to believe that she wouldn't lose herself. In doing so, it appears she gambles correctly and, while not the same anymore, she still is, in a way, herself (if we follow the sequels). Oshii's drills in the paradox here some more. I guess, to put it different she becomes something more. Transcendence, again, a very important part of this story. She decides to forget her fears and become posthuman, really reach the singularity. she's a mindbody, as information, and thus can be rooted in whatever she wants to be, material, immaterial, or both of them at the same time. Really, some people theorize that this distinction is irrelevant, that the body is nothing more than an informational circuit, anway, and thus is information, which proves its physical. Okay, I don't even know where I've gone so far, but basically Batou = Humanist Puppet Master = PostHumanist. Questions Humanist thoughts on subjectivity and embodiment. Motoko = Split between both. Struggles with humanist crisis, trying to find a ghost in her self. Yet also struggles to locate her "self" within a unified arrangement of mind, body, and environmental portions of identity. She merges. The paradox is thus confirmed. She transcends, and apparently finds her true self, this new being that is neither Puppet Master or Major. There's probably stuff I skipped, so it may still be confusing, as I got wrapped up in just writing, but that's the jist of it. Tried not to use to many confusing terms and such.. But I will say this, what really makes Ghost in the Shell a brilliant masterpiece, is it takes the philosophical question of Being and re-frames it using the paradoxical representations of embodiment. Completely new, fresh, and unexpected. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7992 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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While Ghost in the Shell and it's sequel film are great and all, personally I enjoyed the television series, Stand Alone Complex, and it's alternate take on the universe far more because it expanded upon the cast, characters and universe adding a lot more depth to the franchise (which was already quite deep as is). In any case you liked it so I'd definitely recommend checking out the rest of the franchise too, and possibly some other Masamune Shirow works like Real Drive and Appleseed because you'd probably dig them.
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rojse
 Posts: 234 |
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In contrast to all of the intelligent and thoughtful responses posted so far here, I'm probably going to add the smallest contribution - the anime is a rather faithful adapatation of the manga, keeping the main plot and key themes and ideas, yet the anime is far better than what the manga achieved - Oshii removes the silliness, the varied drawing quality, and much of the haphazard plot that had nothing to do with the central story of the puppetmaster, and made the rest of it shine. This is definitely a case where the adaptation exceeds the original.
Out of the rest of the Ghost in the Shell franchise, I would agree in suggesting that you look at the first series "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" - it's intelligent, with an interesting and challenging over-arching story, and also contains well-written single-episode stories which serve to flesh out the cast of characters and the society in which they live. The second season is great, and worth having a look at if you liked the first season, but it has to contend with being in the shadow of such an excellent first series, and feels like more of the same. There's also a direct sequel to the "Ghost in the Shell" movie, called "Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence". I found it far too pretentious to be interesting, which is a problem I have found in watching some of Oshii's other works, but your mileage may vary. |
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ShinobiX
 Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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wikia it
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rojse
Posts: 234 |
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What's this in response to, and why would it be worth looking on wiki instead of discussing it in this thread? |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18396 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Actually, there are a lot of fans who think that 2nd Gig is even better than the first season. I tend to agree. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Interestingly enough, I put these movies on par with those of the Star Trek movies. The first was tediously slow, and had a faceless protagonist. The second was action-filled and a faced protagonist. The Wrath of Kahn, by many, still remains the best of all the movies, including the "shined" reboot. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Whilst I grant that his 1981 paper adopts an example little different to that of Descartes, Putnam doesn't explore brains in vats so much as rule them out on grounds of semantic externalism. In view of this, his writings on brains in vats concerns a matter that popular entertainment, especially The Matrix which I hold to have tarnished lay attitudes towards the philosophy of mind more than any other film in recent years, does not and most probably cannot expound with any degree of intricacy. Given that we are discussing Ghost in the Shell, Ryle is the most obvious person of the English-language tradition to whom to refer, though his opposition to functionalism — which seems a suitable thesis from which to provide a commentary of event types such as 'diving' in a manner that respects naive intuitions of personal identity — perhaps curtails the utility of citing him. |
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ShinobiX
Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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Wow, now u gotta make me read these essays |
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