Forum - View topicBrain Diving - I Don't Wanna Grow Up
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Metanomaly
Posts: 107 |
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Indeed. You'd have to ask a pretty large number people find another individual who would think that Aa! Megami-sama and Gunsmith Cats fall into the "lolicon" genre. Sheesh. |
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Randalt
![]() Posts: 17 Location: Toronto, ON Canada |
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If you look for lolicon elements in those series, you'll find it. I want to read this book.
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Metanomaly
Posts: 107 |
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Moe, yes. Lolicon, no. |
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BassKuroi
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Great book. I re-read it from time to time. The only weak point is indeed the "GC/AMG = Lolicon" issue. It's quite embarrasing reading Kinsella exposition about this matter, because her arguments are very, very weak... Let's see, there's Skuld, almost a loli, and Belldandy seems a little childish from time to time in some aspects, but Urd and Peorth are grown-ups, fully atributed, sexual women.
And her account of Kosuke Fujishima's hatred towards otakus in the same book looks kind of contradictory. In general, I agree with Mr. Ruh point of view about this book. The editor/author issue is fascinating. The most significant change is the merging of "moe". For how things progress in Manga/anime/games, and a complement for Kinsella's book, I suggest Hiroki Azuma's "Otaku : japanese database animals", where the author takes great work describing and explaining the Moe phenomenon. I'll be waiting for Mr. Ruh's review about this book too. |
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Psycho_Despair
Posts: 376 Location: East of Eden |
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This book is available, right?
I Would like to read it and add it to my shelf though my little book shelf as overloaded lol Interesting Article, thanks. |
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Moomintroll
![]() Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I'd agree with you as far as OMG is concerned but Gunsmith Cats has some fairly obvious lolicon elements. I'm not saying that's all there is to the title but sexualised, naked little girls pop up frequently enough (and unnecessarily enough, in any desexualised narrative context) to make it an element that's hard to ignore and certainly worthy of comment. To quote Jason Thompson, "although the heroines are a fairly strong lot, they're drawn like thin-hipped plastic toys with pubic hair and some of the plot elements are frankly pedophilic". I don't really see his evaluation as being particularly controversial. And when you say "people", I guess you mean "desensitised otaku" specifically, because I'm fairly sure the average man or woman on the street would find the sexual imagery in Gunsmith Cats to be...problematic.
He's already covered it. Link. |
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Metanomaly
Posts: 107 |
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I was unaware of any definition whereby one could possibly use the term "lolicon" with characters that are post-pubescent (including GSC where, AFAIK, the characters are all of age even in US terms? -- admittedly it's been a very long time since I've seen it, but I don't think my memory is THAT bad).
The average man or woman on the street generally finds manga/anime problematic for a wide variety of reasons. I think for the conversation to have any sort of rational basis we have to stick to the group of people that, for starters, know what "lolicon" tends to imply. |
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Moomintroll
![]() Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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It's a long time since I've read it too but, as I recall, one of the main characters looks a great deal younger than her stated age of 17 or 18 (and actually *is* under age in fairly explicit flashbacks to her past as a child prostitute). Furthermore, doesn't the same character have a boyfriend who's much older than she is and has been her lover since she was a child? And doesn't the manga pretty much present all that as good clean sexy fun rather than as being a bit...you know...disturbing? Possibly you read the earlier release though? I've heard that the floppies and the individual 1st edition trades were fairly heavily censored (whereas the 2nd edition omnibus release was uncut) so maybe the version you read omits that material? |
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penguintruth
![]() Posts: 8485 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Gunsmith Cats can't be called lolicon manga in any real definition of the word. Yeah, it has some borderline elements, but just barely, and they're not really part of the main narrative or even that reoccurring. It's a laughable thing to even accuse that title of.
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Metanomaly
Posts: 107 |
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It's possible, however, I would still hesitate to call that lolicon. In my mind (and, I'd argue, in the minds of most anime/manga-famiiar folk) that sort of thing *done in the context of a story* does not make it lolicon. Similar to how having sex in a live action movie (nudity and all) doesn't make it "pornography". It could, however, I agree, make it "culturally problematic" for most western viewers. Not that I'm endorsing that we need to censor these things just because some folks may (would?) object to them.
I suppose it's possible, but I think it's more likely we're talking a difference in classification philosophies here. |
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Metanomaly
Posts: 107 |
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I'd add, too that the main reason I wouldn't call it lolicon is because "lolicon" (similar to "porn") creates a very distinct image in most folks' minds who are familiar with the term. In this case, *most* folks who hear "lolicon" associate it with "underage hentai" (often to the point of being borderline or pre-pubescent).
It's a very hard thing to shake even when inaccurate, and so unless it really is through-and-through unambiguously "lolicon" in that sense, one needs to be careful to avoid attaching that "stigma" to a series/movie/show/manga/etc. |
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Moomintroll
![]() Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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What "context of the story"? There's nothing in the exceedingly lightweight narrative or the equally lightweight character development that requires those themes (and even if there were, it wouldn't require them to be presented in the prurient manner that they are). Gunsmith Cats is, essentially, a hodgepodge of its author's favourite fetish objects - guns, muscle cars, naked little girls - loosely linked together by a shadow of a thirdhand plot. I don't think it's pornography in the general sense but nor do I believe that there's some sort of narrative depth being served by its occasional excesses.
I wasn't advocating its censorship - just supporting the view that it exists on the edge of the lolicon milieu. Evidently others disagree with my viewpoint!
Quite possibly. I'm more concerned with the authorial intent (which is clearly to titillate) than I am in the degree (which is what you seem to be emphasising).
It's a word that can be applied to actual hardcore pornography (whether actual or virtual) but it isn't exclusive to that usage any more than "paedophilic" is. I grant you that many readers may use the word differently and / or more narrowly but the author of the book in question is an academic studying a Japanese industry and thus, presumably, using the word in its Japanese sense* rather than in a narrower, American, fan-manufactured sense. (*: That's the assumed usage I've been defending here in any case - possibly we've been arguing at cross purposes.)
I take your point but I don't think it's an academic's job to mince their words in an effort to avoid stigmatising the audience of the work they're discussing. |
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enurtsol
![]() Posts: 14853 |
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Minnie May The manga even shows a blurry flashback of her underage self giving a customer the blowjob. And she keeps herself looking prepubescent for her lover by taking Detective Conan-like drugs.
Dunno what does say about Ken. Barbie wouldn't approve. ![]() |
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penguintruth
![]() Posts: 8485 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Guns, yes, cars, yes. Naked little girls? The nudity involving minors hardly seems intended to titillate, nor is it clear that Sonoda is some drooling pedophile. He tossed it in there to dirty up the scenario. Think of it as a commentary on America more than anything, a statement of "Hey, this kind of shit happens in America, I bet." You make it sound like it's wall to wall sex with minors in the manga. It's almost like you've never read the damn thing. As it's one of my favorite manga, I take great offense at being told that I'm reading lolicon. It's more violence porn than anything. |
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Moomintroll
![]() Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Aren't you contradicting yourself? If he threw it in there to "dirty up the scenario", it's designed to be titillating.
True. But as well as being scattered throughout GSC, I also remember similar elements in the one volume of Cannon God Exaxxion that I read so he's clearly not uncomfortable deploying such imagery as fanservice. Whether he does so for his own benefit, that of his (Japanese) audience or a combination of the two is not something either of us can know.
I can certainly see why you might like it in spite of the sexual elements. I thought that the writing was dreadful, the plot shallow and the characterisation perfunctory but I also remember thinking that the action scenes were exceptionally well handled (especially the driving scenes) and being impressed with the technical art (if not the character designs and backgrounds). But I also remember it having some fairly blatant paedophilic elements that I found disturbing at the time - and enurtsol's post would appear to strongly back up my admittedly feeble memory - and I'm not sure why you think I should say otherwise just because my understanding of a work you enjoy makes you uncomfortable. |
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