Forum - View topicThe Moe is a Lie.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Alright, so for a while now there's been this idea that Moe constitutes a genre of show in which viewers fetishize or become enamored with characters and or certain elements of characters.
My question to the internet is: "So what?" More specifically, I mean "couldn't ANYTHING be moe?" For example: In one corner we have Kanon, which I guess caters to the moe needs of people who like retarded girls. Retarded in that some of them are mentally 5 year olds and thus behave as such or some of them are wild animals in human form and behave as such...and we call that moe. Corner two has Berserk. Berserk couldn't be less associated with Moe...I might even be correct in saying it predated Moe. But if I decide to fetishize Griffith's assholery or I'm gaa-gaa for Caska's "Ihateyourgutsnomaybenot" attitude or any number of things, could we conceive of it as moe? I mean, even Hayao Miyazaki has recognized this. Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)#Criticism: "It's difficult. They immediately become the subjects of lolicon fetishism. In a sense, if we want to depict someone who is affirmative to us, we have no choice but to make them as lovely as possible. But now, there are too many people who shamelessly depict (such heroines) as if they just want (such girls) as pets, and things are escalating more and more." Admittedly I'm not much of a moe connosieur. I've never actually sought out a show based on the fact that it was moe. In fact when I saw what Kanon was and what Air was I more or less thought they were just slice o'life offerings that mixed things up with some supernatural ongoings. I didn't really fawn over the stupidity of the females, I derived amusement from it. After all, the male leads in those shows aren't particularly geniuses either... Eventually I started hearing the name Kanon mentioned in the same breath as something called Moe, I find out what that's all about, and then I arrive here. Now it seems like ANYTHING with a female character that isn't PRISTINELY removed from any of the moe archetypes is identified as being so. It's kind of like what if I suddenly invented "homoe". It derives from the term "moe" and "homosexual". Basically any shonen series that doesn't predate Fist of the North Star falls into this catagory, because I can't think of any since then (or actually anything atm) that is totally engineered for men and almost purposefully designed to reject anything feminine, unless it makes it explode. People who like this genre are impure human beings that fetishize outrageous filler and ridiculous attempts at broadening the audience of a show with lame side characters and subplots. While this could apply to shows like Bleach or Naruto, just because some people who watch those shows are abominations of nature who are into those disturbing things doesn't mean that some people watch Bleach because they actually enjoyed it for the period up until the Soul Society arc ended and thought for maybe 3 seasons that one day the light would shine again are in the same boat. Ultimately, the traditional varieties of genre such as Action, Comedy, Fantasy, Romance, Sci-Fi, and so on denote the actual content of their labeled shows are not the interpretation of those shows by their viewers. Case in point: The Anime Holy Trinity of Suck is appreciated in spite of it's unwaveringly pervasive negavitity for the entertainment we can derive from how well they succeed at not succeeding, but even the phrase "so bad it's good!" isn't really a genre, is it? Now I know what you're thinking, but no, writing a show with thematic elements designed to evoke moe-centric entertainment is not the same as writing a show with sci-fi elements. Moe can apply to anything and everything, whereas Sci-Fi cannot. Of course, I can only go so far in my thinking before my fingers become heavy and my jaw slackens at the time I may have just wasted trying to argue something - BUT I'M WILLING TO GO TO THE BITTER END! I invite anyone to challenge me on these accusations! |
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zanarkand princess
 Posts: 1484 |
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I don't know how to respond? Do you want us to respond about moe or shounen. Are you trying to hear why the clannad fanboys love it and why the bleach fangirls love it or do you just want to rant? It kind of sounds like you know how the most vocal fans of these shows can get and you just want to get them all excited.
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11452 Location: Frisco, TX |
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By Internet do you mean everywhere else other than here? 'Cause if you do, then wouldn't it be better to argue on 4chan or something? I'm sure they'd like to debate this topic at a more fervent pace. And what the hell is "The Moe?" I didn't know the term got upgraded to a proper noun and became universally all-encompassing like The Rock.
I think you're moe *blush.* Hm.. didn't work. Nope, not "ANYTHING." |
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Elfen12
 Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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So... are you trying to say that " ' moe' is in the eye of the beholder" .... or something along those lines? That moe is simply an interperation, and it's how people interpert moe, that forms it's definition?
-Elfen12- |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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It also kind of sounds like you are taking different parts of what I explicitly titled as an argument against moe's status as a genre and focusing on them instead of the actual question. I didn't actually mention Clannad at all because I didn't feel it was really the face of moe the same way Kanon seems to be. The purpose of using the "homoe" example was to further illustrate the ridiculousness of defining a show's genre based off of what some of its viewers experience. You are right about one thing: I do want to rant, but more than that I kind of hope at some stage I'll talk to someone who has something to say about the problem I've put forth. That would get ME all excited. |
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zanarkand princess
Posts: 1484 |
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I hate moe anyway so I have nothing to disagree with you on but your op was pretty hostile sounding.
If this is what you're trying to say I think you would be wrong though. Moe does have traits that specifically make it moe. You can feel attraction to non moe things/ characters just as you do to moe ones but it wouldn't be defined as moe. For example I like both kamina from gurren lagann and loki from The Mythical Detective Loki Ragnarok. Loki for the most part is moe. Kamina is not. Ayu from kanon is moe haruko from FLCL is not. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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You get props for liking House, and your diction indicates that you may very well be House, but that doesn't change the fact that unlike house you haven't worked an offbeat tangent into a brilliant solution. You just take issue with my choice of audience, disregard the context of the word "anything" and don't know a Portal reference when you see one. (The answer to anything was "any anime". My apologies for that. Really.)
By stark contrast you reference a stunningly bad TV show, and yet you demand props for not being a jaded nitwit. So what do you think then?
I arrived there as well, but when you go to the definition of what makes something moe the typical moe archetypes are not a part of that definition. Additionally, there are shows like Aishiteruze Baby that are children's shows but have moe fan followings because there is little if nothing different in it from a moe-engineered TV show. Last edited by dewlwieldthedarpachief on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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Well... i have a split view on this... i don't know if you exaclty answered the question i had in mind, but i'll assume that is what you're suggesting, and then you can tell me if i'm correct after i write this.
Moe is in the eye of the beholder would then mean yeah, moe could be anything (thats where i got this from). Well... i mean, yeah, i have a split view on this. Moe is bascially an interpertation if you look at the bare bones of it. It is basically a certian type of attraction to a character, in this case, in anime. So that is an interpertation. But this is is the text book definition. Now-a-days, moe is seen a bit differnetly... and i think the fans have sort of formed a differnet more in-depth definition based off of generalizations of what they've seen in anime compared to the textbook (wikipedia) definition. So ... Moe could be anything. But something about this just doesn't seem right. Moe could be anything? I mean... isn't the fact that it has a definition, doesn't that cancel out this possibility of moe being able to be anything. What zanarkand princess said is true.
And she is right. This is that fanbased definition i'm talking about. Although the oringial definition suggest that it is in the eye of the beholder... that it is a simple attractiveness to an anime character for certian reasons. But, the fanbase has created a definition based on what they have observed in anime, and ... well lol to be honest i can't really state it. Something that has to do with being cute, and protective of that character, and feeling as though perhaps one has an obligation to help this character out... something like that, i can't really identify it so well becuase i tend to stay away from such terms as moe, lolipop i mean lolicon ... you konw, all that. So, that is why i agree and disagree with you on that. All the above is based on the assumption that you meant that moe is in the eye of the beholder. -Elfen12- |
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Hentai_JP
 Posts: 605 Location: Toronto, ON |
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If I understand you correctly Mr. UnpronounceableNameGuy you are trying to say that any character can cause moe feeling toward them, and that "moe" isn't a genre by itself.
While I am far from fully understanding "moe" term as it's definition has... ummm... evolved over time, I believe "moe" is more of a concept of character design, their way of speech and general character archetype selected specifically to arouse that enamored feeling from audience. Plot and settings can only enhance that idea but "moe" isn't a genre by itself (so i am with you here). However I want to say that some characters, while not being moe by design, can still make you pretty emotional (want to agree with zanarkand princess here) . "Moe" is different as it's made to be that way. You may be familiar with Spice and Wolf series. While Horo, main heroine, really made me emotional about her character, she isn't written as moe. Now look at the Shuffle!, Kanae, I believe that was her name, is your typical moe character. She lives with that guy, she seems to be in love with, she is overly friendly and cute, but she lacks much of personality that will bring her out of "moe" zone(getting off-track here). In the end, I think "Moe" isn't a genre by itself: you wouldn't wright "moe" next to "comedy" or "drama". However if we think of "moe" as of character archetypes we will be able to put them next to "tsundere" So in my view it is rather silly to define show' genre by appearance of "moe" characters as I believe "moe" to be more of a character archetype rather than a genre of its own. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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Ah...so you could say moe is more of an idiom than anything. Or perhaps a sub-genre?
I think I may have the ulterior motive of justifying my enjoyment of Clannad by refuting its moeness. Or moesa. Who to offend... Really, ever since I got wind of all this moe business about a year or so ago I've wondered at how I could hate the idea of moe and at the same time had a good time with Kanon before my internet role models (the AWO and Fast Karate) revealed the darkness within. I'm not that naive, I just didn't see moe until I went looking for it!
Look first off my name isn't random letters. I've used hip new-age alternate spelling of the also innovative and revolutionizing term "dual-wielding" and combined it with a timeless character from Metal Gear Solid: the DARPA Chief. The rest explains itself, really. You assumed correctly. You see, I too get the feeling that there must be something wrong with my conclusion - getting there is easy, but in accepting it I'm apprehensive because if it's so obvious then why hasn't someone said this before? I thought maybe someone would know something...lol. But unless you can justify what you feel that doesn't prove anything, so this where I am atm. Last edited by dewlwieldthedarpachief on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
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Okay, sorry... i shoulda just copied and pasted it there... i didn't mean to be offensive there. I just didn't want to forget what i was about to type. My bad.
I know exaclty what you mean. [thinking] [thinking] [thinking] [thinking]... welp..I was going to try to expand on my thought, but things just aren't coming to mind. I'm in a bit of a brain freeze, the ideas just aren't comin' up on the screen as i thought they would. Yeah it just seems a bit to... obvious, there's gotta be more to it. It is a good point too, i mean... yeah i must admit, the idea of moe is already a tad difficult for me to comprehend. Well, i'm off in thinking land. I'll return when i have 'moe' to write about....  (*sigh* how punny). I mean, i'm no moe-fanatic... but it'll be on my mind.
-Elfen12- |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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Absolutely. Anything CAN be moe. Now go read Dosperado before coming back. |
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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I liked the good old days when how you felt about a character didn't have some damned trendy Japanese catchphrase to go with it.
Here, let me sum it up for those of you who unfortunately never experienced this phenomenon. Otaku 1: "Dude, I kind of dig (insert name), she's cute." Otaku 2: "Yeah, (insert name) is pretty cute." OR Otaku 1: "Dude, (insert name) is totally hot." Otaku 2: "Yeah, I would totally (perform obscene act) with (insert name)." There, no need for explanation, justification, or some bizarre rift in the community. If you think a character is cute. Say "She's cute". If you want to strap her to a table and violate her with Pez dispensers, say so. Then be prepared to take your lumps if somebody disagrees or thinks you need counseling/jail time. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I was introduced to moe with Kanon also. Of course, at the time I didn't realise what I was watching would be annoying to some, and I enjoyed it far more than it would be reasonable to do. For this reason I cannot bring myself to speak ill of moe, but that said I couldn't stand watching Sola beyond the first episode. I don't know if that counts. |
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_Earthwyrm_
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Yep, I'm another of those who didn't even know what moe was when they first encountered it. I loved Air before I knew what moe was, and now that I do know what moe is, it hasn't really affected my opinion of it at all. I felt a kind of affinity for Henrietta (Gunslinger Girl) before I knew what moe was, and I've since found out that 'moe' was apparently what I was feeling - hasn't changed anything though.
I can recognise that some characters are specifically designed to be moe, but sometimes it just seems weird when people try to shoehorn other characters into specific subcategories of moe. It does seem like some people are on a mission to put every character into their moe-box. "Character A is supposed to be tsundere but she's being too tsun-tsun and not enough dere-dere!" 
"What? Don't you know that Guts is guroguro moe?" (well, maybe it's not really gotten to that point yet.  )
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