Forum - View topicOpinions on bootlegged anime (for paper)
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Ignolopi
 Posts: 10 Location: In my own little world.... |
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This thread is for educational purposes.
Last time I posted I guess I was sort of vague, sorry about that. I'll try again, and please read v v First of all, let me get this straight: I'm not rallying for bootlegs, I'm not ranting against them. I'm writing a paper for my Critical Thinking class and the subject is on anime bootlegs (DVDs). I know there is a thread already about bootlegs, I've looked at it, but I really wouldn't want to take opinions or statistics without asking. I would like some opinions from anime fans other than my friends and family on bootlegged anime, so that I may use them in my paper. That being, ANYTHING YOU POST HERE MAY END UP IN A PAPER. I will NOT quote you directly, I won't mention your name, just use any ideas you addressed. If you do not wish your idea to be put in the paper (or if you do wish to be referenced), please say so. I don't want to bias your opinions, I just want some clear ones. Here are some topics, but address anything you like about bootlegs, and feel free to argue (but be nice): Some people think bootlegs help/ed with the popularity of anime... valid? How do you view bootlegs as Theft / unauthorized distribution? FUNimation once said it didn't like bootlegs because it hurts the reputation of the company (because of the bad quality of the bootlegs). Do you think this is true? / Is that something they need to worry about? Although bootlegs take sales away from the production companies, the fans are still likely to buy merchandise... do you think so, does it in any way compensate, does it not matter? Bootlegs are high in availability / price. Would you say that's the best reason people buy them? Does this justify them in any way? Thanks to everyone who helps with this, for any questions just ask! Last edited by Ignolopi on Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Interesting topic.
First off, I will admit that I have 4 bootlegged series: Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon (Live Action), Sailor Moon Sailor Stars, Tsubasa (and the movie) and the xxxholic movie. As to WHY I have them. Well, in the case of the two Sailor Moon's the chances of them coming to the United States in legitimate R1 formats are along the lines of slim to none. And as I am a die-hard Sailor Moon fan-girl, I really, really wanted to see them. As for Tsubasa & xxxholic, well, I'm a weak-willed person at times and the manager at my local anime/manga shop knows that and told me that they had them....and I couldn't resist. Do I regret having them? 1) No. Having these in a bootleg format gave me the chance to see them which I otherwise would not have had a chance to. 2) Yes. I do regret having them. I would prefer having legitimate R1 releases. While I do not foresee the R1 releases of Sailor Moon Live action & Sailor Stars, if you are somewhat familiar with anime, you know that Tsubasa & xxxholic HAVE been licensed and will be released here in the U.S. And as soon as I have my hands on legit copies...the bootlegs are going into the recycle bin. Now, as I said, I only have 4 titles out of...a whole lot of titles in my collection...that are bootlegs. Now, that being said...if more than say... 30% of your collection consists of bootlegs...then that's just wrong. This may be hypocrasy (I don't think so, but still...) but a person should really be doing their best to buy legitimate R1 (or whatever region you are in) releases. I hope that this helps you out. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6900 Location: Kazune City |
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Maybe you've already glanced at it, but I'd suggest reading the most recent thread on this topic as background material.
That said, I'm assuming you're asking about bootleg DVDs, and not about any other methods of illegitimate anime distribution. Based on that assumption, I'm going to give the one and only warning that I don't want to see this bleed into another fansubbing ethics flamewar. Keep it on-topic. |
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Wolverine Princess
 Posts: 1100 |
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It would have been a much better idea to just download fansubs, in my opinion. I think it's just plain dumb to pay for a bootlegged product of something that can be easily be obtained for free on the internet. (Unless you're still on dial-up or something, then paying for bootlegged DVDs of unlicensed series is understandable.) When it comes to bootleg DVDs and fansubs, I only pay for official releases. I’d rather fork my hard-earned cash over to respectable anime DVD distributors for quality products than a bunch of pirates in Hong Kong for translations that read like they went through Babelfish. |
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Cloe
Moderator
 Posts: 2728 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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Hm.. are we talking strictly about HK Bootleg DVDs here? If so, I think that for American anime fans they haven't really made an impact as much as they have in mainland China or other Asian nations. Most North American fans argue that fansubs, both on VHS (like in the 80s and 90s) and through torrenting (the 00s) has helped spread the popularity of anime instead. Which I can see as truthful, somewhat. Not so much because brand new fans are watching the fansubs themselves, but because they're going over to friends' houses and watching their friends' collections, which in my day were half made up of fansub tapes. I don't recall seeing many bootlegs in my early anime days, although I must admit that I purchased a handful when I discovered eBay, since I didn't know any better. Now, on the other hand, my fiance is from Nan Chang, China. In his adolescent days his entire anime collection was made up of illegal VCDs, which he purchased from various street vendors. He says that bootlegs in his town were so numerous that it was harder to find a legitimate release than a boot. I don't know how common this is in other places outside North America, but it might be worth mentioning/looking into.
I'll assume, for the rest of my answers, that we're talking about HK DVDs. I don't see how it's a question of "how." People are making a profit on copied merchandise; of course it's theft.
Oh, definitely, if we're talking about the worst kind of bootleg--the ones copied from R1 releases, with the original company name (Bandai, Funimation, etc) still slapped on it. These types have bootlegs have gotten me into COUNTLESS arguments with people who were absolutely sure they purchased a legitimate company release. For newer fans who don't know any better, if the DVD has an English language vocal track, then the DVD must be legit! And, of course, the encoding is usually much more poor, since the bootleg co. is cramming 8 or 9 episodes onto a DVD instead of 3 or 4. For this aforementioned person who thinks they own a real Funimation DVD, they will likely complain about the quality as a result.
Totally irrelevant. The fan will likely buy the merchandise no matter what. Now, instead of owning the merchandise AND the DVD/tape/whatever, they just own the merchandise and bootleg copy of animation.
I think you mean high in availability/low in price, right? That's definitely the only reason people buy them, unless bootleg ownership is a result of an unsure online purchase. Why pay $120+ for 6 separate DVDs when one can get the bootleg set for $20? Does it justify them? No way. It just means that the person buying them is too cheap to pay the original price. I don't know if the recent trend in lower-priced boxsets, bricks, and especially thinkpacks is helping with this or not. Other reasons people buy them: like LydiaDianne mentioned, some people buy bootlegs because a show they love isn't available in North America yet. For me, personally, in that case I'm more likely to pay for the Japanese R2 DVDs. But a lot of fans are unwilling to go there, since you have to pay $40-$50 a DVD for two episodes and no English subtitles. I usually just buy R2 anime films I know will never come out in the States (Mind Game, Princess Arete, 1001 Nights, Winter Days, etc) and forget about the TV shows. Unless it's something I absolutely can't live without, like Kemonozume. 
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mjgeo
 Posts: 133 Location: Australia |
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I feel up for it, so let's give this a shot if you're taking Australian opinions.
Anime in general, or specific series? Also, how are you defining popularity? What I'm getting at is that because of bootlegging, more people have anime and those people have more anime than would otherwise have through legitimate means. I don't think you could argue against that. However - and this is just my highly speculative opinion - people who purchase bootleg anime (or any anime) are already fans of anime. Certain series might become more popular, but not anime itself in any direct way. I can think of certain indirect ways it could maybe help, but let's keep focus.
I get the feeling this question should be worded in another way. You couldn't possibly be asking if anyone here doesn't consider bootlegs to be theft/unauthorised distribution. So where is the question leading?
Bootlegs are generally (maybe always) a lower quality product than legetimate releases. Many people buy bootlegs without realising it, as mentioned by others in this thread. And even if they know it's a bootleg, they may still attribute the low quality to a company like FUNimation. So yes, bootlegs may hurt FUNimation's reputation. However they don't need to worry about bad quality bootlegs as much as bootlegs in general.
It's hard to see anyone making this argument to support bootlegs without sounding desperate. Also I don't quite get the "do you think so" part. It's not like only fans who own the legitimate release of a series can and do buy merchandise for it.
I can't think of any other reason people would buy bootlegs other than that they are easily available and (especially) at a lower cost. I won't bother with the justification part. p.s. I'm not sure how strict you have to be with sources, but be careful taking the ideas of other people without quoting them directly, or crediting them. I don't think anyone here would care, but your teacher might. |
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Ichigo77
 Posts: 389 Location: California |
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Well I am both against Fansubs and Bootlegs but Bootlegs are more worse. People need to show support and buy legal DVD's because it is the right thing to do. Even if the series isn't licensed here it is still wrong because your paying for something illegal. For Fansubs I still think they are wrong but it would be kind of hard to stop people. If a series is not licensed here I can understand Fansubs, that is why I started watching the One Piece Fansubs because I don't consider the 4kids dub to count. For anime like Naruto though that are licensed and realese uncut DVD's I don't really approve of downloading Fansubs. People just need to deal with waiting. I mean the dubs aren't that bad and uncut DVD's are realesed. If someone is going to download Fansubs though they should atleast do the responsible thing and buy the legal DVD's when they come out. For the argument of Fansubs helping the US anime market I don't really go for. It may have helped a little but over I don't think it was as big as everyone says. I would say Pokemon did more because that brought more awareness to anime in the US.
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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What are we talking about here?
Do you include fansubs/free downloads when you refer to Bootlegs? Can you clarify. i dont wanna go off on the issue of downloads if that isnt what youre talking about. i would encourage you to though since if its just Bootlegs there really isnt much to discuss. Bootlegs are barely available here. I guess they do help the popularity. It isnt theft since you are paying for it. I guess its theft AKA Illegal distribution on the part of the Bootlegger though. I guess it is also supporting theft to buy em. It does make up for it a bit that people might buy merchandise, but Im sure the company would make a lot more if you just buy the Anime from them. Yeah, the only reaon I can see buying em is cause theyre cheaper. i really cant see buying them at all though since anything you can get a bootleg of you can probly download for free and might as well if you dont mind getting it illegally. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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That just means you aren't stealing from the vendor. It's still arguably stealing from the R1 company releasing it or the original Japanese distributor if its not licensed in R1. I say arguably, because that assumes you would have purchased the legit (and new, not used) version otherwise. Which is impossible for anyone other than the individual buying the bootleg (or downloading the fansub) to say with any degree of certainty. No third party can prove that. It also assumes the buyer is aware that it is a bootlrg. It's still copyright violation, but whether Funi (for example) actually lost money is questionable. Many people are too cheap to have bought the legit product even if they had no other options. However, bootlegs can have another effect which may relate to that reputation thing. It can lead people to think that the legit products are 'overpriced' or 'rip offs'. A month or two ago, I was at Best Buy and two guys were browsing the anime DVDs near me. One of them picked up an Inu Yasha set and told his friend how it was a rip off because he could get (or had gotten) the whole series online for $20.  I wanted to say something but I decided I really didn't feel like getting in an argument.
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Amethyst Alchemist
Former ANN Editor
 Posts: 312 Location: where it's always a good morning |
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Bootlegs are the equivalent to theft. I see them all around eBay, and it is so obvious people are just trying to make easy money off them. For instance, I see a lot of "box sets" that are a few discs with the entire series. They cost the price of a few legit dvds instead of the umpteen legit single dvds that are out. I think price iis the main reason people buy them. I have to admit, I have bought a couple of these sets for monetary reasons
 . I only do it for series I think I might like, but I am not sure, so I'm not willing to pay huge prices. I did this for Rurouni Kenshin. I have to say I'm glad I bought it that way because it really isn't a good series (though the OVAs are an entirely different story). And I do thiink it hurts the licensing companies because people see inferior products associated with the company.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I dont really think you can call it stealing if you buy it. If anything the people selling Bootlegs are stealing. Regardless the whole issue of Products like Anime or Movies complicate the issue of stealing. Normally Id say stealing is when you take something from someone and you dont give them anything in return. With DVDs that can be duplicated for almost free, it gets messy. For instance Bootleggers, theyre using someone elses product, but they arent actually breaking into somewhere and stealing their DVDs. They arent directly losing anything so is is still stealing? They are stealing their Buisness, because if someone buys a bootleg theyre not gonna buy the real thing. Ofcourse that assumes that if you didn't get the Bootleg you would buy the real version. Especially in the case of free downloads, theres a good chance you might not. I still wouldnt support Bootlegs because even if some people wouldnt buy the real thing, many would so it is costing the company sales. Then theres the issue of wether youre stealing if you are even seeing someones Anime without paying for it. For instance in the case of Fansubs. If you download a fansub of an Anime thats not available here, youre not stealing anyones buisness. However you are getting to view someones work without them getting anything in return. On the other hand theyre not losing anything, so is it stealing? Like i said, thats where products like this are tricky. |
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saikori
 Posts: 85 Location: Hot Ole' Texas |
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I have a couple of Bootlegs myself. However I purchased a few off ebay before knowing what bootlegs were. So I do have Love Hina, X TV, and had Wolf's Rain. Once legit copies released over here in the states I have since purchased and replaced them. Sure bootlegs are much cheaper but you are getting what you pay for. They do hurt the anime industry just as hacked or pirated video games hurt that industry. The companies survive on the sales. If a DVD (or game) doesn't hit a certain amount of sales then it won't be considered successful. If a title or game isn't considered successful forget a sequel or second season.
So in the long run bootlegs are not good. However in the similar realm I do think Fan subs have a place. As a fan on occasion I will check out a fansub to see if I like the show. To me it's like a preview. If I like the show then I go out and buy the dvd or put in a pre-order. As soon as I get the legitimate version I delete the fansub. Also I think it helps the anime companies as well. If fans are buzzing about a new show they have seen but noone has the license for, maybe that take that into consideration when looking at new shows? The only reason I would really consider buying a bootleg these days if i know there's no way in hell we'll see a stateside release. I've been holding off on Sailor Stars for now but that is one I'd be really suprised to see make it over to the US. Hope that helps for your paper! |
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Ignolopi
Posts: 10 Location: In my own little world.... |
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Thanks everyone, this is great! The paper is due the 4th, so unless you want to have more discussion (but there's a thread for this already) I'll be getting rid of this thread soon. Thank you again!
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zaphdash
 Posts: 620 Location: Brooklyn |
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Anything that increases the visibility of anime potentially helps expand its popularity. However, at least in the American market, I think that bootlegs are generally not purchased except by established anime fans. Unless you live somewhere where you can buy bootlegs in a real shop, you're probably not going to just happen upon them -- you've got to be searching the internet specifically for DVDs of whatever show you're trying to get ahold of. So I'd say that in America, bootlegs have probably had a negligible impact on anime popularity. A relatively small number of people may have happened upon bootlegs in a Chinatown somewhere or some unscrupulous shop or something, but the huge majority has to actively seek a specific anime out to find bootlegs.
Of course they're unauthorized distribution. That's not really a matter of opinion. I think some might be hesitant to actually call it "theft," mostly because people don't want to think of themselves as thieves, but yeah, it's intellectual theft, copyright infringement. I also don't think that's really a matter of opinion, but it is something that buyers of bootlegs may try to rationalize.
I suppose it could hurt the company's reputation, but I don't know that it necessarily does. Think about it. Buyers of bootlegs can be divided into two groups: those who know they're buying a bootleg, and those who do it in error. Those who know they're buying a bootleg won't associate what they're watching with the company that distributes the legitimate version, so there's no worry that the company's reputation will be hurt in their eyes. Among those who don't know they're buying a bootleg, you can divide them further into two more groups: those who know who owns the show's license, and those who don't. Those who don't know who owns the license will also not associate their bootleg with the licensee, because they don't know who the licensee is and the bootleg isn't going to tell them. So the only people in whose eyes the company's rep will be hurt are those who accidentally bought what they didn't know was a bootleg, but they do know who owns the real license. Even in those cases, the reputation will only be hurt for those members of that group who never realize that they're watching a bootleg. I am merely assuming here, but it seems to me that would be a relatively small part of the overall bootleg-buying population. I know that in my case, if I know that FUNimation owns the license for whatever show I'm watching, and the DVD is of considerably low quality, it's going to make me pretty curious; and if I never see FUNimation's logo on it anywhere, I'm eventually going to put two and two together and realize the mistake I made (of course, I'm careful with my purchases anyway and wouldn't make that mistake in the first place). EDIT: After making my post, I did start reading through the rest of the thread. Cloe makes an excellent point about bootlegs which simply copy the R1 release and highly compress it to fit on fewer DVDs, compromising the video/audio quality. In those cases, I would absolutely agree that, for those unaware that they bought a bootleg, the company's reputation could be damaged. Since I've never bootlegged a licensed show, this didn't even occur to me before. I would say my previous response still stands for any bootleg which is not a straight copy of the legitimate R1 release, but for those that are, Cloe is totally correct.
It's possible, but it raises a few further issues: one, the overall availability of merchandise varies from show to show, so in many cases for shows that spawn less merchandise, the impact of merchandise sales will be negligible in offsetting the losses to bootlegs; and two, there is also a lot of bootleg merchandise available, which further damages the market for legitimate merchandise. So bootlegs may get fans to buy merchandise, but whether that compensates for the money lost to bootleg DVDs is highly questionable. Just a guess, but I'd say it probably doesn't.
Well, this probably goes without saying, but the reasons that people buy bootlegs vary from person to person. For instance, I know a lot of people end up with bootleg Cowboy Bebop DVDs because they think they're buying Bandai's limited edition box set. In that case, I'd say the availability (combined with a lack of information on the buyer's part) is the reason they bought it, because it's the one they found and they assumed it was what they were looking for. In my case, I own three bootleg DVDs: Turn A Gundam, Victory Gundam, and Overman King Gainer. At the time that I bought each of them, none had been fansubbed (at least not beyond the first several episodes) and there were no plans to bring any of them to the US (King Gainer has subsequently been licensed, but TAG and VG are both still years away, if they make it here at all, though I do wn some of the R2 TAG DVDs now). If I'm getting illegitimate material, I definitely prefer not to pay for it, but in those cases, bootlegs were the only real option; neither fansubs nor a legitimate R1 release existed, and they weren't on the horizon either. That's just my case, though. I imagine there are quite a few people out there who buy bootlegs just because they're easy to find and cheaper than the real DVDs. I don't think that justifies it at all. You're knowingly taking money away from the licensee and putting it in the hands of thieves just because it's easier for you. I do feel that, as far as you [i]can[i] justify bootleg purchases, my reasons are relatively justifiable: shows that are unavailable here legitimately and which are not available fansubbed (I would consider fansubs considerably more innocuous than bootlegs, given that they're freely available and put out by other fans of the show, although from the licensee's point of view they both have the same effect). Hope that helps with your paper. Didn't really read anyone else's responses, so I dunno if I'm repeating anything that someone else already said, but I guess for the purposes of a survey it doesn't really matter anyway. |
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