Forum - View topicOrientalism & Occidentalism in Anime
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John Thacker
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Also note the next couplet in the Ballad of East and West:
The Ballad of East and West remarks on both differences and universals among individuals. Boiling it down to the first two lines is all too common misreading of the poem; it's a common pitfall used to reach for a point.
Yes, and wrong, and oversimplifying. I'd suggest Unfabling the East by Jürgen Osterhammel for a more educated and balanced treatment, with better historical notes. The interesting contradiction is that the early eighteenth century Enlightenment was more universal than its precedessors, but the scientific revolution it unleashed, and the ensuring rapid European prosperity, led to the triumphalism that led to imperialism and racism later by the end of the century and the 19th. The claim about "judgments were almost always couched in racist terms that perpetuated negative stereotypes and carried the implication (or sometimes overtly stated) that these Orientals needed Western domination to straighten them out" is a claim that is only roughly true when talking about the late 18th century and the 19th, not earlier. Of course it could not be true earlier, when the Near and Far East and North Africa were peers and as likely to be the conquerers and colonizers of Europe as the reverse. Said himself is guilty of Occidentalism and reductionism; it's the same tendency to view the Crusaders as of a piece with modern colonialism (even though the Crusades were a small counteroffensive in a historical period of the Near East colonizing and conquering Europe and North Africa, not the other way around), or the Russians justifying everything due to the "Tartar yoke."
The first arc of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is notable for some real classic Orientalist imagery. But overall, yes, Said's point here should be overlooked more, because it's generally wrong. To analyze the genre tropes of wuxia as the result of Western interests and colonist condescension is to miss their deep roots in Chinese society and literature; many of the Orientalist stereotypes have roots themselves in ancient literature, just often badly translated or with cracked reflections, but sometimes not. Indeed, his overlooked point is worse Orientialism, because it denies agency to non-Westerners, and falsely so, in the service of his thesis, pushing it places where it doesn't belong. There are too many critics who cannot appreciate foreign works on their own terms because they are always seeking for hidden Western influences, instead of appreciating how the native takes on the West (for example) or themselves are different from how we see ourselves. (Or, worse, people who assume that things must be talking about their own private American-centric political obsessions.) There are places where describing Orientalism is appropriate, but it is overwhelmingly "called out" too much and incorrectly in the West these days. It is worth thinking about how the situation could be reversed, and you will realize that Said's thesis assumes too much and makes unsustainable claims and assumptions. You can understand why he wrote it, of course, but it's woefully incomplete and stunts minds and the appreciation of how cultures (your own and foreign ones) to hold it as holy writ; it becomes a kind of conspiracy theory divorced from actual sociology. |
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donkeykong94
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10/10 post John.
Don't get this at all. No part of using those iconic audiovisual cues implies Japan wasn't influenced by other east-Asian cultures, or that those things are "quintessentially Japanese" - they just have come to define Japan and I don't think America is responsible for "shamisen & cherry blossoms" being seen that way. A lot of local foods where I live have more complicated European roots but they're still seen as "Romanian food".
There's a TON of 'old Japan power fantasy' stories - within isekai, yes, but also outside of it, and there's more history to it. Of course western fantasy-inspired stuff like Berserk caught on after decades of "ye olde Japan" stories. And yeah, Japan had a big "ahhh I love Europe..." phase but it's not hugely different from America developing an obsession with ninjas, karate, etc for a while - foreign stuff can just be cool and thinking that doesn't have to imply condescension. Japanese guy becomes "Schwartz von Lichtenstein Lohengramm", Hollywood White Guy becomes "The Last Samurai".
Yeah but the same applies to stuff like Dororo that's very critical of Japan's history (basing this on the 60s manga, remake looks ugly to me & I got no intent to watch it) - of course you're gonna want to make your setting visually appealing and cool.
Lupin's mixed, half-Japanese half-French. Mad Bull 34 is pretty obviously both a tribute to and a parody of US culture; I'd compare it to Panty & Stocking in mixing mockery with an earnest vibe of freedom and individuality.
Yeah because Europe was the cool thing to be into during that period. Doesn't change the Japanese fascination with things like Romance of the Three Kingdoms & Hong Kong action cinema being far more omnipresent anime/manga mainstays in retrospect. Dragon Ball and Hokuto no Ken are still two of the biggest money-makers in the world and they're very Chinese. There's a billion Dynasty Warriors games. Tons of smaller stuff like Ranma & Crying Freeman. Not to say "anti-Chinese racism doesn't exist" but Japanese people clearly think Chinese history & culture are cool as hell. Analyzing Japanese media from an orientalist perspective is fundamentally not progressive; it's using fancy academic speak to say "I'm writing from a standard white perspective". |
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olderthandirt
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I liked the article and learned a lot. This is a very nice introduction to the concepts of orientalism and occidentalism. Well worth the read.
I agreed with the examples. One of the reasons I like anime, manga and JPOP s the fact that it holds up a distorted mirror of Americans like myself. The opening to the anime BECK is a wonderful example of the 1990s US as seen from Japan. Thanks for writing this. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5150 |
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Invoking Edward Said?
Bravo, I say; Bravo. |
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Brutannica
Posts: 257 |
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Thanks for the feedback. Just to clarify: I don't necessarily agree with everything Said wrote (he was definitely on the overly sensitive side), and applying his thesis to Japan or East Asia more broadly does lead to some complications. The whole issue is very nuanced and convoluted and coming up with a concluding point for this essay was tough. I just hoped to start a conversation and feed some thought; don't assume that it's somehow wrong to appreciate any portrayal of a foreign culture that doesn't meet some threshold of political correctness!
You got me there  I mostly used it because it's such a poetic way for starting off this discussion. But as you point out, the poem is mostly about the clash between this British officer and a Pathan bandit, and it's missing the point to assume that it's necessarily about the West and East misunderstanding each other.
Thanks for the book recommendation! Said definitely acknowledges that a lot of Western interest in the rest of the world was just academically or curiosity-motivated, but I'm also not convinced that there wasn't a lot of condescension and stereotyping before then, especially when you factor in how Christians used to have a "convert or die" attitude to non-Christians. |
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luouxmont
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Thank you for this article. Your insight and supplements are appreciated. Rarely do I ever include bull's eye references unless blood is on the line for it.
A current issue I have with attempts for culture crosses is a developers use of the Schrödinger's cat paradox. The one where it is impossible to say for certain if a cat is dead or alive in a box planted with some sort of death trigger without opening the box to see the truth for yourself - however if someone is found to open said box, then they get tagged into a different category, with a point of no return - one who broke the seal versus one who did not break the seal. It's not limited to Japanese people to use this tool. However, I find myself often at these crossroads with their creations. It seems like, for this example, Japan finds better use for me as one who did not break the seal versus the one who broke the seal. Since one who refrains from opening Schrödinger's box can be seen as one who is protecting Schrödinger's box, preserving Schrödinger's box. As opposed to one who went ahead and opened the box to find out what happened to the cat, spoiling the paradox - which is in itself, its own allure. The flip to this though is that - one who never opened the box is also one who is ignorant of the creator, ignorant of an item of a culture beyond its own - versus one who opened the box is also one who now has knowledge the unknown, another step within the culture beyond its own. It's hard to discern where to place the fulcrum - the knowing or the unknowing. About the Japanese Learning Proficiency Test - I am not even sure if some Japanese people care if someone earns an N1 license. They might choose to dissociate from them anyway for a funny accent despite their proven knowledge. They might choose to associate with a complete ignorant instead - simply because they chose not to open Schrödinger's box. Sure, I'd love to experience more stuff from someone else's perspective if they post it, however even before I decide that, I have to figure out if whatever that person posted was something to share or another landmine to keep me out. |
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liatris
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From my point of view as a Japanese, being able to freely portray the West in our media is more about increasing its power.
It's true that there are attempts to idealize the West, such as in French anime tourism commercials, but at the same time, they are free to portray a violent and dominant West. This is the right of the Japanese regardless of what Westerners protest. For example, we can ignore a left-wing scholar saying that "anime glorifies the West and is bad for the colonial nations." Of course, the same is true for right-wingers. We can depict Hiroshima destroyed by an atomic bomb, or we can depict Americans as an evil military power. By maintaining that state, we rather have a self-consciousness that we are equal to the West. However, in that case, refusing to depict Japan with excessive orientalism creates a self-consciousness that it is not equal to the West. So this means engaging in cultural protectionist trades as they are still no match for the mighty Westerners. n fact, as anime expands beyond Japan, there must be an increasing number of self-conscious Westerners who don't want to be portrayed in the West by Asian Japanese. This is a rather normal reaction. So they finally understood what Orientalism is. Actually there is no difference. However, it is necessary to pay attention to whether it is increased by external power other than the media. What I think is important in maintaining a balance of power with the West is that excessive fear of Orientalism can create a kind of inferiority complex. Prolonged protection of culture does not produce good results. Somewhere we have to go outside. |
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HighInquisitor
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Hello and thank you for writing this article. I enjoyed reading it and learning your views. I will apologize in advance if other posters have already discussed what I'm going to say. You make a point of comparing orientalism and occidentalism in the context of anime. Specifically you indicate that orientalism is problematic because it "perpetuate[s] negative stereotypes" and implies that Asians need Western domination for self-improvement. Yet you go on to say that occidentalism is different because it is not derogatory or mean-spirited.
With respect, can we say with reasonable certainty that this claim about occidentalism in anime is true? Isn't it a bit of a sweeping statement to say that all portrayals of the West in anime lack these qualities? Are you saying that the Japanese have never allowed problematic stereotypes about the West to influence the medium? That seems unlikely, don't you think? Thank you once again for writing the article. |
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