View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
SleepyDave
Joined: 16 Feb 2017
Posts: 28
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:03 pm
|
|
|
Okay, so it was good to not finish this novel xD I stopped reading after the halfway mark of volume one, because the protagonists were so unlikeable, it made me puke.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Gina Szanboti
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11593
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:38 pm
|
|
|
Is it really necessary to call him an "alphole"? oO Not only is it an awkward portmanteau, it reminds me of incels complaining about "femoids." :/
|
Back to top |
|
|
Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2654
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:43 pm
|
|
|
^It's a pretty commonly used term in romance novel discussions, but I can stop if you hate it that much. (Honest statement, not being sarcastic!)
And yeah, SleepyDave, they don't get quite enough development to be all that much better.
|
Back to top |
|
|
JacobC
ANN Contributor
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3728
Location: SoCal
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 pm
|
|
|
Gina Szanboti wrote: | Is it really necessary to call him an "alphole"? oO Not only is it an awkward portmanteau, it reminds me of incels complaining about "femoids." :/ |
Sorry about that. It's now been replaced with something more straightforward.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Beatdigga
Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 4597
Location: New York
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 pm
|
|
|
I’m pretty sure at this point you can play “Light novel title or SNL sketch?” and have enough weird names to fool most casual readers.
|
Back to top |
|
|
meruru
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 475
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:12 pm
|
|
|
Sounds to me like the reviewer's problem with it is that it's the Beauty and the Beast trope - - goes without saying that story trope comes with the guy being problematic in some fashion - - either he holds her hostage /forces her into a relationship, or acts like a jerk, or both. Though from the review, I doubt I'd much like it either.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2654
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
|
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:56 pm
|
|
|
Except that it's not "Beauty and the Beast" - that tale type is dependent upon the Beast being nice to Beauty. He's actually a much less problematic character in the tale type, which is often accepted as being about making girls feel better about their arranged marriages to older husbands; it's more Beauty's dad who's the issue for agreeing to sell her in the first place.
But yeah, my problem is largely that he's a jerk.
|
Back to top |
|
|
meruru
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 475
|
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:28 am
|
|
|
Princess_Irene wrote: | Except that it's not "Beauty and the Beast" - that tale type is dependent upon the Beast being nice to Beauty. He's actually a much less problematic character in the tale type, which is often accepted as being about making girls feel better about their arranged marriages to older husbands; it's more Beauty's dad who's the issue for agreeing to sell her in the first place.
But yeah, my problem is largely that he's a jerk. |
I'd argue that while the classic tale has the element that Beast has to be nice to Beauty, that other stories following the trope don't. Example: The Ancient Magus's Bride. Elias is nice to Chise, but there's absolutely no reason in the story he has to be. And pretty much all of them have some amount of unhealthiness to the relationship - - non consent, extreme power imbalance, or he's a jerk. As a result, it often makes stories falling into this trope difficult to like, unless you happen to have a bit of a kink for that kind of thing. I mean, if you think about the fact that Chise is a slave too hard, you might spoil The Ancient Magus's Bride for yourself even though most people usually mostly ignore that part so they can enjoy it.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2654
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
|
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:51 am
|
|
|
You're right, and I realized at about 1 am (when the dog woke me up having The Running Dream; thanks, Barry) that you weren't necessarily talking just about Disney or Mme le Prince de Beaumont's well-known version.
I do think this series in particular has more in common with ATU 441, In Enchanted Skin, rather than ATU 425C, Beauty and the Beast. Strapparola's Italian variant, "The Pig King," fits Claudio pretty well in the way he treats Rosemarie, because he's much more of a twit than Beast tends to be - and much worse than Elias in AMB, who I agree fits the standard mold pretty well. Strapparola's story is much more sexual than a lot of others in the tale type, which absolutely doesn't work for this series, but his unarguably terrible treatment of his bride is Claudio to a T, where a protagonist like Elias is easier to like if you don't think about the circumstances too hard.
As usual my problem is probably knowing too much on the whole fairy tale subject. It definitely gets me into trouble.
|
Back to top |
|
|
meruru
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 475
|
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:20 pm
|
|
|
Haha, yeah you definitely seem to know alot about fairy tales. =) What's ATU 441 and ATU 425C?
|
Back to top |
|
|
Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2654
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
|
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:28 pm
|
|
|
meruru wrote: | Haha, yeah you definitely seem to know alot about fairy tales. =) What's ATU 441 and ATU 425C? |
I teach a class on them.
ATU stands for "Aarne-Thompson-Uther," the three scholars who sorted most fairy tales (or at least, started sorting) into "tale types," or specific categories by theme/plot. The types are based on the idea that the same stories exist all over the world, often with no or minimal cross-cultural context, which is pretty cool. So the story most of us know as "Beauty and the Beast" is ATU 425C, or tale type number 425 sub-category C, and it's different from ATU 441, "In Enchanted Skin," where the romantic lead is born as a pig, hedgehog, etc. "Hans my Hedgehog" is the version the Grimms collected.) The website Folktexts is a really good one for seeing a bunch of them and how damn many Cinderella stories there are.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Agent355
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
|
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:46 pm
|
|
|
When you wrote "In Enchanted Skin" I was thinking the ones where the woman turns back into a sea creature at the end, like Selkies. I assume that's a different type?
Would The Frog Prince (the fairytale, not the Disney movie) be an example of In Enchanted Skin?
|
Back to top |
|
|
Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2654
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
|
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:45 am
|
|
|
The Selkie stories are actually classified as ATU 400, "Swan Maidens." It's a subset of the Animal Bride tales, and the Celestial Maiden story that Yu Watase used for Ayashi no Ceres is also a part of it. Folklore usually differentiates tales by the gender of the transformed (although not if there's no transforming; Ash Lad tales are still classified as Cinderella), but what's more interesting (I think) is that Animal Brides usually end their stories by being freed and leaving their husbands, while Animal Grooms end with the typical happily-ever-after with their wives.
The Frog Prince is his own tale type - ATU 440, "Frog Kings." The princesses in these stories are usually much less charming (and less passive) than in other Animal Groom tale types. Plus Freudian scholars think the frog represents a penis.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alan45
Village Elder
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 10019
Location: Virginia
|
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:26 am
|
|
|
The Celestial Maiden story was also the basis of Faerie's Landing from TokyoPop. However, it was based on the Korean version of the story. Unfortunately this is one of the many titles left undone by TP.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|