Forum - View topicAmericans don't like 2D in theaters
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Emerje
 Posts: 7413 Location: Maine |
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This is a really interesting artical on how Disney is now droping it's traditional animation in favor of computer animation. Before you call this off topic make sure you actually read the artical. This actually explaines why anime doesn't do well in the box office. If DISNEY 2D animation can't make a buck, then anime doesn't stand a chance. Put aside whatever your beef is with Disney and come to terms with just how big of a name Disney is. Just about every time a new animation feature comes out in the US, the general public thinks it's from Disney. Now you take anime, which already has trouble with the mainstream public and then hold the fact that for the most part it's 2D animation. And it makes more sence now that while an Academy might say Spirited Away is the greatest animation of the year, the average movie goer doesn't want to see it. I no longer see how we can blame Miramax, Disney, Dreamworks, or any others for what looks like restricted releases, when 2D animation as a whole is at a box office low.
The following was posted by a guy I know that posts on a toy forum I visit, [url=http://www.imdb.com/Name?Pickett,%20Daniel%20(I)]Daniel Pickett[/url]. He's probably better known online as Julius Marx and has a column over at Action Figure Times. Daniel is senior staff over at Disney Feature Animation working as an operations manager. He had this to say on the forum in responce to complaints about this article: "Gang...what you gotta keep in mind...Is that it is the movie going PUBLIC that said it doesn't want to see traditional 2-D Animation. Story almost doesn't enter into it any more. People like 3-D and they are eating it up no mater WHAT it is (with the exception of Final Fansasy). "It's not just Disney. EVERYONE's 2-D movies are tanking at the box office. Sinbad did worse than Treasure Planet at the box office. NO one thought that was possible. "And before you start up the "it has to be a good story" argument you have to look at things like Iron Giant, Tarzan, Mulan, Spirited Away and Lilo and Stitch. Iron Giant may be one of the best animated films ever....and it tanked. Spirited Away won the freakin' Academey Award! How much did it make? Lilo and Stitch had a lot of heart and did pretty well...but not as well as Ice Age (which was cute, but not great). there hasn't been a big 2-D animated film for ANY company in quite some time. "People like the 3-D animation. They have a fondness of 2-D, and a romantic notion of it...but they ain't going to see it in the same numbers as Nemo, Shrek or Ice Age. "Disney isn't scrapping all of 2-D. They aren't closing up shop or going out of buisness. They just seem to be redirecting their focus for a time to go along with what the public responds to. They are a buisness after all." Food for thought. I doubt we'll ever anime make it big in the US theaters unless it's heavy on 3D effects. Even that would an uphill battle. Next time a company announces they're going to be doing a limited theater release for an anime, rather than get mad, think about what's going on at the animation houses in our own back yards. Emerje |
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Dark Nero
 Posts: 220 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia |
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So just because disney is sorta scraping their 2-d projects, that means anime will never be popular in theatres? Disney is just one company, but do you think anime would have popularized without this happening. I mean I have been waiting for the day that I can go see the premire of (insert your favourite up and coming anime here) in the theatres and it actaully makes enuf money for that to be a profitable decion by the producing company. I believe we still have a long way to go.
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Ian
 Posts: 149 Location: Thaxton, VA |
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It's not that Disney is just one company, it is THE company. Disney is like the Bill freakin Gates of animation ANYWHERE, they're even huge in Japan. And I have noticed as well that lately no one seems to care about wether the story is good or not when they go to the theatre, they just want something to enjoy for 90 to 120 minutes(LXG). And scince people are more familiar with Disney than any other animation studio, if they're tanking you KNOW anything else will only be worse. And it makes sense that people are attracted to the 3-D aspect. Ever since Toy Story, the public is simply awaiting the next Pixar Entertainment movie(which just so happens to be owned by Disney!
 ). I will be surprised if any anime movie released in american theatres makes top 5 in the Box Office.
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LuppyLuptonium
 Posts: 139 |
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Disney Has a marketing Machine and they didn't use it for Spirited Away... The Movie was in thetures within 2 days of winning the award and I didn't even know it was was there until Like a week later.....
When Disney Hypes a movie they normally do it properly.... With Spirited away they treated it like a bastard japanese child. Spirited Away actually did fairly well considering how much press it got. An academy award is good and all but what good does it do if you barly advertise a movie before kicking it into thetures? I still have friens who are pissed off because they didn't know it was in thetures for the whole 2 week run it got.... Spirited away wasn't considered Passe.... It was mistreated, and under advertised. Any other movie would have a magor marketing campaign, including TVads Magazine ads, T-Shirts and a Mc Donnalds Happy Meal. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15581 |
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Then that would explain why the Spirits Within was such a "hit". And fyi, Lilo and Stitch made some serious cash. Dinosaur, otoh, was lucrative, but not profitable. (They had to close down one of their studios because they couldn't get back their money on that.) As for Iron Giant, WB blamed it on marketing. The other 2-d films listed have been successful. And for the record, Spirited Away still made more money than Princess Mononoke. And as far as I'm concerned, cg is as banal as singing animals, which is probably why it's so popular. In addition, if Apple didn't have Pixar, they wouldn't have any money, because Macs sell for sh*t outside of Japan. (Sure, Finding Nemo's kicking Reloaded's a** at the box office, but that's because one's PG, and the other's R.)
Anyway, there's still a market for 2-d just as much as cgi. (Disney wouldn't be releasing Snow White on dvd otherwise.) And CGI, as I stated before, costs more. It's cheaper than it was back in the days of Jurassic Park, but it's still expensive. It also takes more planning. So while movies like Sinbad and Treasure Planet may have failed to make back their money, they're still safer investments. If a company like Pixar makes one bomb, then it's over for them. And the quickest way to make any of these films bomb is to release them on a yearly basis, because movie-goers got bored with how they just carbon-copied them. That's what killed Disney's "talking animal" franchise. [/list] |
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Emerje
Posts: 7413 Location: Maine |
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But that's just it, it's NOT just Disney, it's every studio in the US that does 2D feature animation. Both Titan AE by FOX and Dreamworks' Sinbad were box office bombs. If Dreamworks couldn't get Sinbad to make money do you really think they're going to see Millenium Actress or GitS2 as potential money makers? Of course not, and that's what this is all about. If 2D animation isn't selling in theaters then there's no point in a company trying to get anime out when it already has being a forign property against it, and on top of that being 2D. Not until people get sick of 3D animation is 2D animation going to be big again and THEN maybe we can see anime getting a push, but I doubt it will be any time before then. Emerje |
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Emerje
Posts: 7413 Location: Maine |
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I doubt Spirited Away would have done well if it was advertised any more than it was. Lot sof hype doesn't guarentee a big return. Just look at the Atlantis and Treasure Planet. Both were advertised about as much as you could expect, got their toy lines, fast food premiums, and breakfast promotions, and both were porely recieved in the theaters. With stuff like that happening I can't blame Disney for giving Spirited Away a limited release and limited advertising. How could they tell? If they're own animation is failing in theaters why on earth would they think something from another country would do better? As for the limited 2 week release after it won, I think most people were surprised it even got that seeing as how the DVD release was only a few weeks away. GATSU, about the Disney DVDs. There's a big difference between the Box Office market and the home video market, especially when it comes to animation. Most of the people going to the theaters to see animation are in families, parents taking their kids. As much as tickets and snacks cost now they can only aford to go *maybe* once a month. Aperently when they have to choose between a 2D animated film or a 3D animated film they're going to the 3D film. This is the type of thing that's changing the industry. People have spoken and they're choosing 3D. Emerje |
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GATSU
Posts: 15581 |
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Emerje: " If 2D animation isn't selling in theaters then there's no point in a company trying to get anime out when it already has being a forign property against it, and on top of that being 2D."
They're cheap to license, and they're guaranteed a quick return. "Not until people get sick of 3D animation is 2D animation going to be big again and THEN maybe we can see anime getting a push, but I doubt it will be any time before then." Anime will get a push when it makes as much as Lilo and Stitch theatrically. As it is, it's come a long way. I remember when you were lucky to see a film in any city in the U.S., let alone more than one in the same month. And you almost always had to see it dubbed. And there was no guarantee of a home video release if you did see it subbed. "I doubt Spirited Away would have done well if it was advertised any more than it was." It would've made more money if they kept it in theaters when people were actually seeing it. "Lot sof hype doesn't guarentee a big return." So that means cgi is even more burdened to get a larger return, because its success is based on its special effects and not its writing. "With stuff like that happening I can't blame Disney for giving Spirited Away a limited release and limited advertising. How could they tell? " They could tell, because it was making an incredible amount of money for its limited distribution, but instead of expanding the number of theaters, they decreased them! Pokemon 4Ever had a larger theater count, and it made less money, but they didn't decrease the theater count for that film. "Just look at the Atlantis and Treasure Planet. Both were advertised about as much as you could expect, got their toy lines, fast food premiums, and breakfast promotions, and both were porely recieved in the theaters." Perhaps how they were advertised factored into the equation. I mean when you watch ads for those movies, they don't come off as "must-see" films. Hell, if they actually explained some of the plot for Princess Mononoke like they did for Spirited Away, I think it might've made more money as well. But their emphasis was on the animation, just like it was for Atlantis and Treasure Planet, and so the story and characterization got lost in the process. (And proves that animation style isn't the only key to success.) "As for the limited 2 week release after it won, I think most people were surprised it even got that seeing as how the DVD release was only a few weeks away." Actually, I think they gave it a month. And they have to re-release films which win, because there might be a demand for a film which would've been overlooked in the past. "There's a big difference between the Box Office market and the home video market," Not anymore. Nowadays, dvd's get pressed right after the final cut, because dvd sales can bail out any film. And the dvd market as a whole is as comparable in profit as the movie industry itself. "As much as tickets and snacks cost now they can only aford to go *maybe* once a month. " There's something called matinee. "Aperently when they have to choose between a 2D animated film or a 3D animated film they're going to the 3D film. This is the type of thing that's changing the industry." There will be enough people to see anime in limited release form to compete, in terms of profitability, with people who see Pixar movies in wide release form. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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In other words, any point Emerje was trying to make is wrong, and it's just a fluke that 3D movies have definitely been selling much better across the board the past few years? That's a pretty tough sell, GATS.
I, personally, don't think the problem is as bad as the interviews and editorials that pop up now and then make it seem. I definitely don't believe that there is "no market" for 2D animation, when traditional anime is bringing in millions of bucks in video sales and TV-related revenues. Theatrical or not, there are clearly still plenty of people out there who will watch this stuff. I can't argue with the numbers, though. 3D does seem to be drawing a lot more people than 2D. I think that it might have to do with the fact that 3D is, from what I cen see, still emerging as an art form; and thus, 3D animated films (big blockbuster ones, anyway) are being seen by the public as "diamonds in the rough" of sorts - which is to say, they are still rare enough that peoples' interests are piqued at the three- to six-month intervals that we've been seeing between major releases. Don't really have any research to back that up, or anything. Just a conclusion I've come to from watching the boxoffice numbers and listening to people talk about the stuff. 
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Cassandra
 Posts: 1356 Location: Birdsboro, PA |
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I think it's the "new" generations that want the 3D animation. I mean, why would they want to go see a 2D movie when they can sit at home and watch a 3D TV show?
I have a 17-month old daughter....and we watch a lot of Playhouse Disney. There's a lot of 3D animation on it. There's a few 2D shows, but those tend to be the more "educational" shows instead of the "entertainment" shows. And if you look at the teenage crowd....you have the new Spider-Man on MTV, Batman Beyond...(OK, so I need to watch more cartoons on TV to have a solid argument for the teenagers) The point I'm trying to make is...why lay out the $8+ to go see a movie that doesn't look as good as the stuff you can sit at home and watch for "free?" Of course....it would be nice if the animated movies weren't stupid >.< |
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LordByronius
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 861 Location: Philippe for America! He is five. |
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Three-dee shmee-dee. The reason Sinbad and that Rugrats movie didn't make a dime was because they sucked, not because audiences are "tiring" of 2D animation. Audiences don't really care.
The ones who are drumming up this "2D animation is dead!" nonsense are know-nothing Hollywood producers trying to scapegoat failing profits on their audiences. In all honesty, I wouldn't say that audiences are TIRED of 2D, so much as they're looking for something DIFFERENT in their animated films, which is why the recent Pixar and Blue Sky films have been so successful. Anime is certainly different; if it were, oh, say, MARKETED PROPERLY, it could do pretty well, I think. Of course, proper marketing requires money and intelligence; Hollywood seems to have one or the other, but never both. Oh, one last thing I forgot to mention. This article pretty much summarizes my whole feelings on the matter. |
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LuppyLuptonium
Posts: 139 |
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AHEM!!!! The movies mentioned failed on their own merits. Think about it. When you first saw the trailor for Lilo and Stitch, did you think it was an alien comes to earth story? I KNOW I DIDN'T!!!! I thougfh it was disney parodying themselves, I love that kind of stuff.... When I found out what it really was I didn't care to see it at all.
The Iron Giant wass advertised Poorly. Titan AE was PG (Parents Don't seem to like giving Guidance anymore, but that is for another topic) Spirited away did pretty freaking well for a 2 week run without much advertising. I don't care what you say, all methods are created equil, It is the product and advertising of the product that matter!!!!! |
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v1cious
 Posts: 6230 Location: Houston, TX |
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i personally thought Sinbad was pretty goood. anyways i don't trust this. how relaible is the source? i mean they've been pushing that "Brother Bear" movie pretty hard, and i've also heard they're having a fallout with Pixar. |
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animaniac
 Posts: 246 Location: Idaho |
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well the fact that disney is scrapping doesnt help anime in theatres. So far we arent there yet
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Bruce Lee
 Posts: 715 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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You really can't say anything bad about them for not fully supporting the niche market. It doesn't make business sense to do it- especially when you're already at the top of the mainstream market. Look what happened last time somebody did: Mononoke Hime came to the US with the same credentials as Spirited Away - #1 Japanese Box office champ, Studio Gilbi's next big thing, etc. Then the American move company (miramax?) came in and got big name actors to dub the parts (probably not cheap) and what came out of it? Nothing, really. I saw it on a Friday night, at a brand new theater, at a brand new shopping center, right in the middle of Downtown Seattle, and there were about 15 people in the theater. So now the 2 biggest Animes ever (arguably) in Japan now have both come over here within 5 years, and haven't done jack. But anything CG turns to gold (except the anime-ish one-ff). How can you blame them for going with what works?
PS - I really like the Iron Giant |
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