Forum - View topicHonorifics in Anime (not your otou-san's debate).
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11603 |
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I've noticed in the last year or so that there seem to be a lot more characters who insist on being addressed by their given name without honorifics almost as soon as they meet someone. Some of them have English sounding names, but not always (I don't think even most of them do). They're usually girls, but again, not always - I'd guess a 3:2 ratio of girls to boys. I think there are at least two or three such characters in just this season alone (don't ask me to name them - I know at least one of them is in Asterisk or Worst Knight or Anti-Magic, and I can't keep those straight yet).
If I'm not imagining this, what's behind it? Is this a trend among Japanese teens that anime is following? Is it a new thing among the cool kids that anime has jumped on and hopes to spread? Is it a bone thrown to Western audiences (and licensors) who won't have to argue over whether or not the English should keep honorifics in dubs and subs? This seems very unlikely, since all the characters would have to reject honorifics, and just one doing it sort of forces the use of it with the others - or maybe that's the point, since the argument would still be moot. Is it a shorthand for a certain kind of character? If so, how are we supposed to see that character - cool? rebellious? egalitarian? pragmatic? open-minded? modern? rude? forward? demanding? I don't know what the Japanese viewer reaction to these characters is supposed to be, or what the animators are trying to tell me about them, since to me they don't all seem to be representing any particular character type. Has anyone else noticed this and if so, have any insight into why the uptick in such characters? |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 10033 Location: Virginia |
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You are probably thinking of Claudia the blond student council president in The Asterisk War. She is very vehement about it pronouncing each syllable. The MC agrees and then pronounces his first name and tells her to drop the honorific herself, which she refuses. Something was lost in translation there.
I'm also remembering that the redhead from The worst one also insists in being called by her first name. So probably both shows. I'm not sure if it means anything or is just a way of indicating a quick or forced closeness. I'm still hearing a lot of "sempai" instead of any name though. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13240 |
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It usually is representative of character traits. Some one who tells others to use their given names is meant to be seen as open and friendly. If it's directed at a particular person it means they don't want that person to act distant around them. There are also cases where, for various reasons, a character hates their family name and don't want to be associated with it.
Some one who uses other people's first names without permission can also be seen as being overly friendly or some one who puts everyone on an equal level. Other people might find them rude but the character in question just doesn't place much importance on formality. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15576 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Most of my information is not probably anything too recent, but it might be a few changes. Using honorifics can be seen as a little impersonal, that with increases of influences with the west has been making some small changes. If not general population at least the popularity of a character that might hold such ideals.
That it is more women than men, I wonder if it has to do with what has been said about changes between the genders, that I think has been attributed oddities in the dating scene. Apparently there have been comments that on average women have become more "carnivorous" and men have become more of "herbivore" (not about diet) in Japan. That this possible new trend is not a direct relation to the above but a symptom, maybe open for more discussion. It would be interesting to go through and get more statistics on examples. A while back I went through the list of everything I watched and saw a clear indicator that on average female characters with very small breasts were more likely to be a serious love interest to a male character over those with a larger size. Probably not connected to this one subject, but just wanted to mention I once spent hours going over the anime I have seen to build statistics on the bust sizes of characters. Seeing trends can be interesting, which might be more so if you were to maybe compare when this new trend were released and such. There was this one podcast I listened to that talked about why it is not as big a coincidence as you might think American movies often end up having movies that are very similar released around the same time, as chances are the idea for them may have been influenced by something like a certain news event that happened some time ago. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11603 |
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I've never gotten that impression, since people seem to be picky about which honorific people use for them, and whether they attach it to a given or surname. Distancing, as in intimacy, yes; impersonal, no. I just think I'm seeing a subtle shift from characters having a crisis over when to switch from surname-kun to firstname-kun, to summarily dispensing with all that from the get-go, which was, afaik, unheard of in anime 5 years ago. Mostly honorifics were a matter of course and went unremarked unless it was crisis time. @ Alan45: I think it was Stella from The Worst I was thinking of. And I don't think anyone in Anti-Magic Platoon uses honorifics at all.  I kinda would have expected Ohtori to insist on them at least calling her sempai or something. At least they use her surname while the others are on a first name basis.
@Vaisaga: Well, see, that's what I mean - that's a lot of different character traits you just mentioned, and none of them seem to particularly apply to people like Stella and Claudia (or the 35th Platoon). When it can mean so many different things, it stops being "shorthand" for something. Which brings me back to wondering why it's become a trope. On a related note, I've started noticing that a lot of characters don't use honorifics when talking about someone rather than to them, even if that person is present. Dunno if that's always been the custom and I never noticed, or if it's part of the new casual. 
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15576 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Regardless, an honorific is a title, using them is expressing what position they have to you. The idea is that if one does not use honorifics when addressing them, then it is not addressing them based on their title, but very personally. There are good times to use titles, respect can be important, schools all over the world have this. But even within a schools (I have seen cases in my own country) where you might find given names being used. It is a change in intimacy, you are connecting to them on a personal name rather than on their position. From what I hear, there have been shifts to being more open in Japan. Or in terms of anime, in characters who might have it as a representation of western society. Ironically, I think that there might be a difference in some cultures in the west that using someone's actual name is more formal an impersonal. In Australia it is very common to alter someone's name a bit if you are being more open with them. So a name like "Johnny" becomes "Johnno", "Andy" becomes "Ando", and so on (no, I am not joking, this is often how naming conventions go, even if I don't follow it myself). |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11603 |
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I think we're essentially in agreement, just differing in our definition of "impersonal." To me, if you just use -san for everyone and call it a day, that's impersonal. If you consider the individual and your relationship to them and pick the "right" honorific, that's not impersonal.
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vonPeterhof
Posts: 729 |
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When it comes to less formal language though the rules aren't that clear. I recall being laughed at by another student (not a native speaker of Japanese, but so fluent he could easily be mistaken for one) because I accidentally referred to one of my teachers as "XX-san" instead of "XX-sensei" (the teacher wasn't there). At the same time, referring to people by names you'd never call them to their face isn't unheard of in casual banter. When watching the anime and reading the first book of Sound! Euphonium I noticed that Kumiko more or less consistently uses the same forms for addressing and referring to people: saying "Reina" when Taki-sensei brings up "Kousaka-san", saying "Shuuichi" when Hazuki asks about "Tsukamoto", saying "Asuka-senpai" when Shuuichi talks about "Tanaka-senpai" and when Haruka asks about "Asuka", etc. However in the second book there's a scene where she talks to Reina and mentions "Hazuki and Sapphire" instead of "Hazuki-chan and Midori-chan". Not sure if this is meant to emphasize that Kumiko positions Reina as an outsider to their group of three (even though in that scene she's inviting Reina to hang out with them), or if it's meant to show that she's closer to Reina than to the other two and feels comfortable enough around her to refer to her other friends using slightly less flattering names. Last edited by vonPeterhof on Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13240 |
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I think it's pretty obvious that Stella and Claudia want to have a close relationship with Ikki and Ayato. Using honorifics implies a degree of distance and the girls don't want that. They want to be equals, some one the guy won't hold back around due to formalities. There are lots of different meanings behind how one character addresses another, many that don't translate into English. That's why when it comes to subtitles I think they should be left as is. They sound a bit awkward in dubs, though, but it annoys me when a dub is inconsistent. Sometimes in dubs you'll hear characters use another's first name even though they only ever use their families names otherwise. I'm sure it's just to match the flaps or something but it still takes me out of it. |
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GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
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The use of honorifics is slowly dying among the younger generations in Japan, so, yes, anime is starting to catch up in term of how younger Japanese people tend to talk with each other. I wouldn't say it is time to completely give up on the old way of interpreting the relationship between two people based on which honorifics they use as you have to remember that a lot of the people writing these kinds of stories are older and still have that kind of mindset in terms of how the younger generation interacts with each other, but as the times change and younger minds with fresher outlooks enter the industry, the works inevitably begin to reflect newer social trends.
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11603 |
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I finally got around to watching Hataraki Man (sooo good!) and noticed that except for the main couple, most of the time pretty much everyone in that used honorifics both when speaking to people and about them to others. That's from 2006, but I guess that kind of highlights my point.
Thanks GeminiD. At least I know I'm not just imagining it.
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GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
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Just to clarify, as I did not make it 100% clear in my original post and don’t want to cause any confusion, I was referring to anime that feature younger characters; basically any work that features college–aged characters or below. The Japanese office environment, for the most part, is still just as rigid as ever and using honorifics and polite language is required when appropriate (there are bunch of rules to explain regarding when and how to use honorifics and polite language correctly, but I am not going to bore you with those mind-numbing details), so Hataraki Man would not be a good example to demonstrate your point as pretty much any anime based around an office environment should have the characters using honorifics as this is the standard practice you will find in 95% of business environments in Japan. Recently there have been more progressive office environments that don’t adhere strictly to the standard office dynamics and formalities sprouting up, but they are in the minority and are not the status quo. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 10033 Location: Virginia |
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@Gina Szanboti
Things have changed. When I first read the manga Lum (Urusei Yatsura) from Viz I noticed that Lum called Ataru "Darling" instead of using his name. This was a bit awkward when she talked about him "Darling did this or that". At the time I wondered what Japanese word was being translated like that. Later I got the Kimagure Orange Road anime and realized that Hikaru was doing the same thing with Kasuga. When I actually listened closely (sub only) I realized that she was, in fact, using the English word darling. When I got the DVDs of Urusei Yatsura, Lum was doing the same thing. It took a while to sink in, but it finally occurred to me that both girls were using the English word as a sort of honorific. Apparently neither could bring themselves to use "Darling's" first name. Considering Lum was living in Ataru's room and claimed they were married and Hikaru had claimed Kasuga as a boyfriend, I found this a bit extreme. Ironically, Kasuga calls Hikaru "Hikaru chan" even though he can't bring himself to call Madoka anything but "Aukawa". For what it is worth, it is hearing things like this that has made me prefer subs to dubs. |
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yuna49
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I often see "darling" as the translation of "anata" (literally "you") in scenes between spouses. It always seemed a little forced, but here's a discussion on the issue I found just now: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090524151127AAxdL2V I'll just mention that in the hentai entitled "Darling" both characters, and particularly Miyuki, use the English word itself rather than a Japanese term. |
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Alan45
Village Elder Posts: 10033 Location: Virginia |
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@yuna49
If they had only used "darling" when speaking to their loved one, I wouldn't have noticed as that is the way the word is used in English. What caught my attention was that they also used it when speaking about them. As in "Darling ran off again" In English even if you were going to use that you would say "My Darling ran ..." In most cases you would use their name as in "Ataru ran off again" or use he if the person specified was known. From that discussion you linked I don't think "anata" would be used when talking about an individual. In any case, in both anime they were using the English word. |
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