Forum - View topicMoe hate vis-à-vis Moe love.
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5177 |
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What is it about moe that -- from what I understand -- brings out such strong feelings (pro and con)? I really cannot answer the question because I do not have a strong opinion regarding the matter. The closest that I can be in having a strong opinion is that I believe that it is a reflection of just how ingrained sexism is in Japanese culture -- but that is just my opinion! |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Oh, a Moe thread: how fun.
First, just to clarify that quote of mine: I reckon a Most Moe Redux tournament would be popular, which is why I want it. Moe brings out a lot of feelings because it pervades Anime. Lots of shows have Moe, so it's something that lots of people talk about it. Then there's the issue where, quite often, the cutest things in a Moe show are the girls (young female characters) themselves. And since so many shows fawn over the girls, it makes people uncomfortable. Personally, I like Moe, as in the protective feelings or the act of squeeing over cute things. I just don't like how it is often (not always, but often) utilised in Anime as a blatant sales grab or crutch to prop up a bad plot. So while one form of Moe actually is okay with me, the other - sexualising young girls by making them the object of Otaku desires, all to make an easy buck - I feel is disgusting and demeaning. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24493 |
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Warning: link is not really SFW. |
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5177 |
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Blood---
I have a feeling that I will end up regretting asking this question, but I will bite anyway: Exactly what is your point? |
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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He's calling dtm42 a hypocrite. dtm42 disagrees because he feels there is nothing pandering or sexual about a mother and underage adopted child hugging on a bed in their panties.
And I haven't even seen the image myself. I only know all this because it's been brought up in the Kirito!GaryStu and Honey-Boo-Boo!threads. Last edited by Crisha on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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getchman
He started it Posts: 9139 Location: New Hampshire |
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i hope those Honey Boo Boo threads aren't on ANN
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13246 |
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Blood-, there's nothing to gain in trying discredit dtm42 by pointing out inconsistencies in what he says. It's just something we humans do.
Anyways, the thing about moe is that it's impossible to hate it. Moe, by definition, is something you like. Don't like big eyed cutesy anime girls and prefer deep badass women? It's not that you hate moe, it's just that you don't find the former type moe and find the latter type moe instead. You just might not use that word to describe it. Moe's gotten generalized. A vast majority people do prefer the big eyed cutesy girls and when you have so many people calling that type moe, others will connect the two and believe that moe = big eyed cutesy girls. So hate of moe comes from disliking that particular type, not knowing that moe isn't only limited to that. It can also just come from people who hate on popular things because it makes them 'cool' and 'highbrow' or whatever. So 'moe hate' does not exist and 'moe love' is a redundancy. How can one make a "moe free" show anyways? Have all the characters be hideously repulsive? But I bet at least one person finds ugly people moe. |
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AmpersandsUnited
Posts: 633 |
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Nopenopenopenopenope. the exact opposite. It stems from the extremely sexist expectations of women America has about women. The kind of people who criticize a woman for willingly choosing to become a housewife. I already posted my thoughts on the whole thing plus a handy picture here: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2252303#2252303 moe is just an extention of that. If you see a girl as cute or flawed it's called out as sexist because woman can not be those things in the eyes of the average American. she must be tough as nails and eating steel girders for breakfast. So when moe-bashers see a girl acting like that, it upsets them... |
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5177 |
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Vaisaga--
Then it seems to me that we need an article/thread on the precise meaning of the word moe. If people cannot agree on definitions, then there is an inherent language barrier. AmpersandsUnited-- I am sorry, but I find your thesis unconvincing; in fact, looking at that thread, I find ikillchicken's riposte to be right on the money. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Vaisaga, did it ever cross your mind that maybe I don't view that picture in a sexual way? There's no inconsistency.
"Moe is a Japanese term used in connection with manga or anime to describe something precious, usually (but not always) the ideal of youthful and innocent femininity. Written with the kanji for "to bud or sprout" (萌), the concept covers a range of ideal behaviour for youthful female characters in manga or anime. To be moe, a character can be eager or perky, not overly independent, and call forth a desire in the viewer to protect them and nurture them. The term is also used to describe any preciously cute item; there is an animal mascot character store in Tokyo called Moe. There is a lot of debate over the crossover between moe fandom and lolicon. While the crossover exists among fans and products the two genres are not synonymous." That is taken from ANN's lexicon. I would also specifically include those girls who are extremely shy and quiet, like this girl: 
I too agree with ikillchicken on that. Last edited by dtm42 on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24493 |
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Really? Wow, I thought the point was self-explanatory. I invite everyone do conduct this experiment: 1) Take a look at the image (by yourself would probably be best); 2) Take a look at this quote:
3) Then ask yourself if a person who believes the quote noted above saw that image, what would you expect would be the most likely reaction of that person to the image?: a) disapprove of the image, b) have no opinion one way or the other, or c) approve of the image. If your answer is "c" - approve of the image - please explain your reasoning. Oh, I should also provide a bit of context: the two characters in the image above appear in the same show. The young girl on the left is initially characterized as a child spoiler[who has lost her parents. The older girl on the right becomes a mother-like figure to her.] dtm42, of course, is aware of this context. In fact, that image was first posted in a discussion thread dedicated to Sword Art Online which the two characters are from. The image is not from the show itself. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15594 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I assumed that it came from the slight sexualisation of traits that are typical of young girls, wich also has the flip side of seeing women as being helpless. A general response to the traits is a desire to protect, a good portion like this feeling like a certain demographic likes watchig movies where the male interest wants the femal's blood. But at the same time you get non fans of anime turned right off, a good friend of mine who does not like anime seems to describe moe traits as looking at an alien.
The next piece is that it is that it has become quite common now that people who don't like it that much are annoyed at it's overuse, are sick of air heads, young girls covered in cream, have panties flashed, etc. Perhaps taken a step back and noticed traits that are slight towards pedophilia. Although moe is not always sexual, you get some cases where it is more purified, like say Acchi Kocchi. Although there are a lot of nosebleeds in that series, and they tend to come from girls, I wonder what the nosebleeds could represent.... I just ruined Acchi Kocchi for myself. |
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5177 |
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Blood- --
*sighs* I thought that your response might be like that, but I wanted to make certain that that was, in fact, the case. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion; I respectfully submit that dtm42 was being snarky and thus, did not intend for his comment to be interpreted the way that you are doing so. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13246 |
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Pardon, I should have said "percieved inconsistency." I was responding to Blood-, after all. But it's not like I don't understand where Blood- is coming from. You say the sexualisation of young girls is disgusting, and yet you approve of an image that is sexualising a young girl.
ANN is not the first place I'd look to find an impartial look at moe  I prefer to get it directly from the source: Japan.
Case in point, in Ouran Host Club when Ritsu tries to confess to Haruhi in the club room all the female customers (who believe both of them are guys) squeal "MOEEEEEEEEEE!!!" as they watch. This instantly debunks ANN's definition that says it only applies to females. Males can be moe too. |
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5177 |
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When it comes to defining cultural norms, I prefer anthropological/sociological sources -- not anime.
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