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Japanese legends/history?




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Elf474



Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 100
Location: Behind You
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:11 pm Reply with quote
While everyone here is a big fan of anime, has anybody here read many of the Japanese history/legends (they're the same thing) that they're based on? The story of the royal sword Kusinagi, that was found by Lord Susanoo inside the tail of a god eating eight headed serpernt and is one of the three great treasures of the empire which was lost in the sea? The story of Jimmu Tenno, who is known in history as Japans first HUMAN emperor and the son of a descendant of the sun goddess and the daughter of the sea dragon king?

What I find most interesting are some of the similarities to myths in other parts of the world. How in the land of the dead, Yomi, once you eat the food you can not leave. The tale of the Willow Wife sounds remarkably similar to stories of dryads. The Dwarf god appears to be a fairy and they even had their own version of Tom Thumb.

Another fine point is that many of the weapons and other utensils told about in legend are still around. The pot eaten from by the giant monk who served the man who may have become Ghengis Khan is still in a temple and still bears tooth marks on its edge. The Mirror and Jewels of the Sun Goddess are still kept respectively in a temple and the royal palace. And there are records in Japan and Korea of Empress Jingo's conquering army which was said to have been inspired by the gods and led to Korea by dragons.

So what do you know of these stories? And do you think they could be true?


Also what names are used in anime that have correspondants in Japanese tales? Kurama and Hiei for example are mountains.
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SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 468
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:27 am Reply with quote
Elf474 wrote:
While everyone here is a big fan of anime, has anybody here read many of the Japanese history/legends (they're the same thing) that they're based on?


I remember first being exposed to specific Japanese myths through Yoroiden Samurai Troopers, when at the end of the series they had to obtain the three (or one of them) sacred imperial treasures (Kusanagi, the Jewel of Life and the mirror) to finally defeat the Demon World. Several years later, I did some reading on Shinto and Buddhism and was exposed to the Nihon Shoki myths (Amaterasu, Izanagi and the creation of the islands, etc.). Eventually, I grew out of it and a lot of it became fun filler for drunken conversation at 2 AM if someone else brought up other mythologies. Occasionally something (like the imperial treasures) may come up in a legitimate historical article but I don't much take it further than that.

Also, no, history and legends are not the same thing. Legends are a part of a culture's history but they do not have to live up to the same standards which defines actual history through research and review.

Elf474 wrote:
What I find most interesting are some of the similarities to myths in other parts of the world. How in the land of the dead, Yomi, once you eat the food you can not leave. The tale of the Willow Wife sounds remarkably similar to stories of dryads. The Dwarf god appears to be a fairy and they even had their own version of Tom Thumb.


If it's your sort of thing, I recommend a book called The Hero With A Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. It looks at traditional hero epics and compares them across numerous cultures with some extremely interesting parallels. Even though the subject matter is hardly my cup of tea, studying the material was slightly more interesting than reading a lot of the epics themselves.

Elf474 wrote:
Another fine point is that many of the weapons and other utensils told about in legend are still around.


Many religions have sacred relics (or, from my perspective, pro ported to be sacred relics). I've been to a church in Germany which supposedly has a splinter soaked with Christ's blood from his cross. Numerous shrines in Japan all have some weird relic.

Elf474 wrote:
And do you think they could be true?


No, of course not.

Elf474 wrote:
Also what names are used in anime that have correspondants in Japanese tales? Kurama and Hiei for example are mountains.


They were also Imperial Navy ships, not unlike the Yamato. I don't think it should be all that surprising to see a series with say, supernatural elements like Yuu Yuu Hakusho, and see characters with names or traits referencing any sort of mythology.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:51 am Reply with quote
Just buy Moyuru Kojiki.



It is rather easy for a native Chinese speaker to read Kojiki in its original text; most Japanese students today would have headaches reading this ancient text in complete kanji. I also recommend reading it after age 18 for it contains descriptions of spoiler[sexual intercourse and erotic dancing.]

Elf474 wrote:
The story of the royal sword Kusinagi

At least spell it correctly, okay?



EDIT: Image couldn't display after cookie expired; moved the picture to Photobucket.


Last edited by dormcat on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15576
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:41 am Reply with quote
The most I usualy look up are japanese mythology, especialy mythological creatures. Before I even got realy into anime I had an interst in kappa and quite liked reading things about Kitsune, and since that I have enjoyed anime that have had kitsune in them like kanon, Inukami and kanokon. In fact I quite like anime that involve mythological creatures I have looked up myself.

Don't know much about actual japanese history though except for some anime and Holywood movies.
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Elf474



Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 100
Location: Behind You
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:09 pm Reply with quote
I'm actually an avid student of the occult and paranormal and I think that some of the more mystical events in Japanese history may have occurred exactly as described.
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hyojodoji



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 586
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:06 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
It is rather easy for a native Chinese speaker to read Kojiki in its original text;


Quote:
夜知富許能 迦微能美許登波 夜斯麻久爾 都麻麻岐迦泥弖 登富登富斯 故志能久邇邇 佐加志賣遠 阿理登岐加志弖 久波志賣遠 阿理登伎許志弖 佐用婆比爾 阿理多多斯 用婆比邇 阿理迦用婆勢 多知賀遠母 伊麻陀登加受弖 淤須比遠母 伊麻陀登加泥婆 遠登賣能 那須夜伊多斗遠 淤曾夫良比 和何多多勢禮婆 比許豆良比 和何多多勢禮婆 阿遠夜麻邇 奴延波那伎奴 佐怒都登理 岐藝斯波登與牟 爾波都登理 迦祁波那久 宇禮多久母 那久那留登理加 許能登理母 宇知夜米許世泥 伊斯多布夜 阿麻波勢豆加比 許登能 加多理其登母 許遠婆

夜知富許能 迦微能美許等 奴延久佐能 賣邇志阿禮婆 和何許許呂 宇良須能登理叙 伊麻許曾婆 和杼理邇阿良米 能知波 那杼理爾阿良牟遠 伊能知波 那志勢多麻比曾 伊斯多布夜 阿麻波世豆迦比 許登能 加多理碁登母 許遠婆
阿遠夜麻邇 比賀迦久良婆 奴婆多麻能 用波伊傳那牟 阿佐比能 惠美佐加延岐弖 多久豆怒能 斯路岐多陀牟岐 阿和由岐能 和加夜流牟泥遠 曾陀多岐 多多岐麻那賀理 麻多麻傳 多麻傳佐斯麻岐 毛毛那賀爾 伊波那佐牟遠 阿夜爾 那古斐岐許志 夜知富許能 迦微能美許登 許登能 迦多理碁登母 許遠婆

These are excerpts from Kojiki.
Do you think it is easy for a native speaker of Chinese to understand them?
 
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Player No. 3



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 209
Location: San Antonio, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:22 pm Reply with quote
I like mythology in general, but I really wish that I knew more about Japanese mythology(Well, that and Celtic mythology). All I really know are tidbits like certain demons and monsters. Although, I remember my friend told me the legend of Izanami and Izanagi and found some interesting parallels between it and Orpheus. (Minus the whole "I will kill 1,000 humans a day" thing.)
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EireformContinent



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 977
Location: Łódź/Poland (The Promised Land)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:41 pm Reply with quote
All legends and stories are the same at all:)
For example Cinderella- poor orphan with wicked stepmother and stepsister(s) helped by fairy godmother(French)/three growing on her mother's tomb(German)/speaking oak with door(Poland)/golden catfish( Chinese). As a child I collected fairy tales from over the world and I was really surprised how familiar stories are similar in exotic setting.

Back to the topic: I've never been interested in Japanese history nad literature at all. Most of my knowledge comes from books about them. Of course I've read Geisha of Gion and Tale of Murasaki, but Genji Monogatari is still angrily looking at me from bookshelf. Sorry, after all studies I'm too tired to think about something more complicated than Dragon Ball... I promise, during holidays I will at least read Journey to the West (I know it's Chinese, but it had and impact in Japanese culture)
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Andrez



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Tokyo
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Elf474 wrote:
The story of the royal sword Kusinagi, that was found by Lord Susanoo inside the tail of a god eating eight headed serpernt and is one of the three great treasures of the empire which was lost in the sea?


I recently did a story on the history of sake and it's importance in Japanese culture, and interestingly enough this eight-headed beastie tale came up.

I stumbled across the story while tuning in to a compilation of collected works by the late great Akira Ifukube.

Ifukube was the regular Godzilla sound track composer and worked as well on Shintaro Katsu’s original Zatoichi outings—and, it turns out, was the man who scored a 1963 Toei anime feature called Wankapu Oji no Orochi Taiji (The Little Prince and the Eight Headed Dragon) along with the 1959 Toho classic, Nippon Tanjo (The Birth of Japan).

Both the animated romp and its live-action brethren are based on a relatively famous myth in which the eight daughters of an elderly couple are devoured on consecutive years by a dragon named Yamata no Orochi (‘Eight-Forked Serpent’). This annually ravenous beast flaunts eight heads and eight tails, and size-wise stretches out over eight hills and eight valleys.



While this may play havoc with the Japanese notion that eight is a lucky number, things straighten out somewhat just prior to the consumption of daughter Number 8, named Kushinada-hime (‘Rice Paddy Princess’).

It transpires that our hero Susanoo-no-Mikoto, the banished Shinto summer storm god (played by Toshiro Mifune in the ’59 movie, featured as a central character in Masamune Shirow's manga series Orion, and even a bit-player in Neil Gaiman’s Sandman comic), having just met the couple, has his eye on Kushinada and so offers his assistance in return for their daughter’s hand. The aged parents accept and Susanoo swings a magic trick that transforms Kushinada-hime into a comb he hides in his hair (of course).

He then orders a barrier built around the house in which there’re eight gates; at each gate a bench is placed, eight cavernous tubs placed upon each bench, and the tubs filled with eight-times-filtered sake.

So when the dragon does make his lumbering eight mountain/eight valley arrival, he finds his path blocked and after much huffing and puffing (a bit like the wolf in the three little pigs story, really), Orochi finds that he can’t breach the barrier. Then his acute sense of smell takes in the sake - which the polycephalic dragon loves, of course - and the eight heads themselves entertain a dilemma.

They want to guzzle the delicious sake that calls out to them like the Sirens from Homer’s 'The Odyssey', yet the fence obstructs their path, blocking any easy way to reach the precious booze. When one head suggests that they simply smash the barrier down, the consensus is that this would knock over and waste the sake. When another head proposes they combine their fiery breath and burn the fence into ash, they agree that the sake would potentially be evaporated.

Yet as Orochi looks closer, he finds that the gates are actually unbarred and, pining for the sake on the other side, his heads are keen to stick their necks through to go guzzle it. But here the eighth one, which is the smartest, warns his cranial brethren of the folly of such action - then volunteers to head through first to make sure the coast is clear.

Of course it's a cruel trap, as Susanoo waits for his chance and allows that single head to drink some sake in safety then report back to the others that there is no clear danger. All eight noggins plunge through a hatch each, greedily skull every last drop in the vats, and revel in the effects of the alcohol.

As the heads reel, Susanoo launches his attack on Orochi. Drunk from slurping so much sake so quickly, the great serpent is no match for the wily, teetotaling Susanoo, who decapitates each dazed crown in turn and thereby slays Orochi, a fitting lesson indeed for all eight-headed beasties out there with a taste for the hard stuff.
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:20 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
The most I usualy look up are japanese mythology, especialy mythological creatures.
Same here. I've read a few stories and looked into some of the cultural rationales people have come up with for the origins of the myths and creatures. Kitsune especially interest me for some reason.

I've read more about cultural aspects than anything else. One of my last classes before graduating was a course in Japanese culture that was surprisingly interesting. (Anime was brought up near the end, which was cool. Got to write about my favorite anime.)

I haven't read as much as I'd like to own their military history though. WWII mainly, which is typical for me.
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hyojodoji



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 586
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:23 pm Reply with quote
Mr Gilles Poitras, who is also active on the ANN forum, wrote the Seimei jinja entry in the Anime Companion Supplement in January.
http://www.koyagi.com/ACPages/acs.html#Seimeijinja
Recently I happened to reread the part about Abe no Seimei in Konjaku Monogatarishū in the original.
In the Onmyōji live-action film, there are scenes based on it.
Thinking of the reevaluation of Konjaku Monogatarishū, probably I should thank Akutagawa Ryūnosuke.
Quote:
 亦、此晴明、廣澤ノ寬朝僧正ト申ケル人ノ御房ニ參テ、物申シ承ハリケル間、若キ君達・僧共有テ、晴明ニ物語ナドシテ云ク、「其識神ヲ仕ヒ給フナルハ、忽ニ人ヲバ煞シ給フラムヤ」ト。晴明、「道ノ大事ヲ此現ニモ問ヒ給フカナ」ト云テ、「安クハ否不煞。少シ力ダニ入テ候ヘバ、必ズ煞シテム。蟲ナドヲバ塵許ノ事セムニ、必ズ煞シツベキニ、生ク樣ヲ不知バ、罪ヲ得ヌベケレバ、由无キ也」ナド云フ程ニ、庭ヨリ蝦蟆ノ五ツ六ツ許踊ツゝ、池ノ邊樣ニ行ケルヲ、君達、「然バ彼レ一ツ煞シ給ヘ。試ム」ト云ケレバ、晴明、「罪造リ給君カナ。然ルニテモ、『試ミ給ハム』ト有レバ」トテ、草ノ葉ヲ摘切テ、物ヲ讀樣ニシテ蝦蟆ノ方ヘ投遣タリケレバ、其ノ草ノ葉蝦蟆ノ上ニ懸ルト見ケル程ニ、蝦蟆ハ真平ニ   テ死タリケル。僧共此ヲ見テ、色ヲ失テナム恐ヂ怖レケル。
 此晴明ハ、家ノ内ニ人无キ時ハ識神ヲ仕ケルニヤ有ケム、人モ无キニ、蔀上ゲ下ス事ナム有ケル。亦、門モ差ス人モ无カリケルニ、被差ナムドナム有ケル。此樣ニ希有ノ事共多カリトナム語リ傳フル。
 其ノ孫、于今公ニ仕テ、止事无クテ有リ。其土御門ノ家モ傳ハリノ所ニテ有リ。其孫近ク成マデ識神ノ音ナドハ聞ケリ。
 然レバ、晴明、尚只者ニハ非リケリトナム語リ傳ヘタルトヤ。


In Aramata Hiroshi's Teito Monogatari, which Doomed Megalopolis is based on, there is a scene where Kōda Rohan reads a script about Abe no Seimei.
Quote:
 明治四十三年七月。汗ばむほどではないうららかな日和に恵まれたその日、露伴幸田成行はひんやりとした畳に腹這いになり、和綴じの古本をぱらぱらと繰っていた。朝がた、神田の古書店から小僧がやって来て、注文しておいた書物を置いていったのだ。
 今日の魚釣りは夕方からだと心に決めて、幸田はうららかな午前中と、けだるい午後の数時間を、古本に目を通しながら過ごす気になった。
 本を読もうなどという気分になったのも久しぶりである。この四月に妻の幾美子を失い、三歳になるやならずやの長男成豊をかかえて、読書をする心の余裕すら持てない百日余であった。
 畳に置かれた包みを解いて、なにやらなつかしい紙の匂いを嗅ぎながら題目を眺めていくと、心を惹かれる文字に突きあたった。戦国時代か、それとも江戸初期に出板された古浄瑠璃本だった。
 「ほう、『しのだ妻』か」
 幸田は、そうつぶやいて、頁を繰りだした。



By the way, it seems that this thread was mentioned on a Japanese bulletin board.
http://academy6.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1251331352/146
http://academy6.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1251331352/158
http://academy6.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/english/1251331352/160
 
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