Forum - View topicI don't get Utena?
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I've watched Utena quite recently. I put it off for a long time because it didn't look like something I'd enjoy and I generally don't like low fantasy (or high fantasy really for that matter). Anyways, as it happens I thought it was okay and I understand why people like it as much as they do to an extent.
However, I still can't grasp exactly why it has the status it does among anime fandom as a whole. I can understand certain types of people being very engaged by it, but it seemed very narrow to me in terms of its potential appeal. What am I missing? What part of my brain is broken, thats preventing me from appreciating this? |
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Bango
 Posts: 1122 |
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When watching the Utena movie I was the only one in the room who wasn't drunk off my rocker and I didn't understand it any better than the drunks. I mean from a plot standpoint.
From an appeal standpoint it gains a lot of bonus points with yuri fans and fans of the UTTERLY FABULOUS~~~. Especially since not much else at the time was hitting those two cords. I never saw evidence that the show was a groundbreaking hit any more than most other oldies. For a lot of people it was a their fir non-"mainsteam" (as mainstream as anything was in that era) show which also awards bonus points. |
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EricJ
 Posts: 876 |
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This's one of your archival series, back when, like Eva, GITS and Lain, it was one of the earliest titles to hit US video (and, more importantly, DVD, so fans bought the series whether they'd heard of it or not), so it became the first big "Oo, it's so artsy and different, you have to see this!" fanboy-evangelism title. There wasn't really much choice at the time. Unfortunately, it's those titles that don't get updated over the years, and newbies still run across old newbie-recommendation posts and say "Should I watch this Utena thing? Would I understand anime at all if I didn't watch it??" without either side having any clear recollection of why it started getting mentions in the first place. It's time to break the cycle. As for me at the time, I didn't really think there was anything TO "get": The manga stories seemed cliche-straightforward enough, but the anime seemed like a lot of stylized Emperor's New Frilly Clothes for Kunihiko Ikuhara to recycle some of the gay-themed tropes he'd carried over from his swirly-colorful-overanimated touches on Sailor Moon S & SuperS. It looked so carried over, I used to joke, "If Haruka & Michiru had ever been hired by an anime studio to write their own anime series, it would look and sound EXACTLY LIKE THIS." (The idea of Uranus and Neptune sitting around a drafting table writing themselves into the series, having the characters' dialogue spout their own somber "The approach of the shadow..." artsy-posing, and then getting the idea for a comedy relief that just happened to look and act like Usagi, just constantly cracked me up.  )
Last edited by EricJ on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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Even if it does have very narrow appeal it still does have a lot of fans and they are vocal about it. The number of forum and blog postings doesn't necessarily correlate to the number of people who like it. I happen to be one of those that do like it -- it is one of the few titles where I invested in the higher-resolution remastered versions when I already owned the originals. (Not the BDs from Japan which run in to the hundreds of $USD). The appeal has to do with the artistic mix of psychological play with the surreal screenplay that uses a lot of symbology. The erotic subtexts are also a big draw. If you are just taking the whole thing at face value: a physically proficient girl who likes to wear boy's school uniforms fights and wins sword duels for What Is Right then: meh. Nothing much there. There are a lot of people who can't look past the face value, then there are others that think it is far more sophisticated and profound than it actually is and that is a formula for a very high volume of forum postings about it. |
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Beaux10
 Posts: 22 Location: Mississippi |
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It is definitely a series of subtleties despite its fabulous nature, but that can be good or bad to different people. After all, complexity doesn't make a work great; depth does. Some people may find that it buries itself too deeply into its own artsy ideas rather than delivering an actual quality narrative but others will find that it is clear enough to function as a solid narrative while allowing room for exploration and personal interpretation within a clear framework (not to mention the gorgeous art design). Both are valid points and neither side has anything to lose if someone else disagrees.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the series but there are clear arguments against it as well. |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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Lol, don't worry, you are not the only person who does not "get" Utena.
Haha! That is a hilarious concept. Though I can't help but think they would make the yuri relationships much...more....intimate. *cough* Those two are not shy when it comes to talking smut.
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Bango
Posts: 1122 |
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eh? I thought they were just really close cousins. Cousins can't love each other and girls can't love each other so what ever are you gentle people talking about?
j/k j/k LOL. Anyway, I'd love to see a spin-off series of something that was done like it was made by one of the characters in the original with fake credits and all. I half expected OreImo to do that if it got more popular. The closest we may get is something like Kujibiki Unbalance but that's not really what I'm talking about. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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Yes! Major mock applause for the company who thought the yuri was inappropriate and through bad editing, managed to make their relationship even MORE inappropriate.
Cloverway.... *slow clap* Imagine if they got a hold of Utena! "We'll just make them twin sisters because twins are close, right? So if they always touch each other, nobody will think that's weird!" |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I think one of my main issues which I alluded to earlier is the fantastic nature of the series. I can only really deal with fantasy if the boundaries are relatively well defined. ie The story has internal logic. Utena just doesn’t have any internal logic. The Black Rose Saga was especially problematic in this regard. In terms of the themes, I have to say it did seem incredibly sentimental and contrived. A good portion of the emotional turmoil the different characters were thrown into just seemed to be there as an excuse for further duels. It felt like a gimmick rather than characterisation, especially since a few of the duellists in the 2nd and 3rd acrs weren’t really very essential to the plot. It was like the writers were thinking, “We need another duel. What character can we push into some emotional turmoil?Hey, there was that kid from 5 episodes ago? How about him. Fine.” As a combination of these two points, I think my overall problem with the series is that I didn’t see any reality in it. Whether in terms of the characters, the world, or the plot, it just seemed totally fantastic. Satoshi Kon’s work has surrealist elements but I can still see the reality in the fantasy. With this I just saw fantasy. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Well, I didn't mind that the anime gives some screentime to supporting characters and I liked the Black Rose saga, but I understand you. It seems that Mawaru Penguindrum, which, of the two Ikuhara's series, is more focused, would be slightly more up to your alley.
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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I don't doubt for a minute that this is what they were doing. That isn't all bad, however, because you could look at it as a psychological study about how we all have grudges that can be exploited (except for that one kid that didn't go all the way down) and they are different and the same at the same time. I recall the Black Rose season was one they really started getting heavy with the metaphors (the elevator, the empty waiting room, the crematorium and all the artifacts of the dueling arena). Tinkering with all that was what the whole arc was for and yes, the opponents for Utena were just fodder and not really the subject. My bigger problem with that arc was they ended it with erasing everyone's memory so it is like it never happened for any of the characters, just the audience. That's a pet peeve of mine and RUG is by no means the only guilty example of that. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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The issue isn't giving side characters screentime, the issue is sentimentality=unearned emotion. Having inessential background characters go through emotional turmoil without any preceding development or ultimate need.
Already saw it, and to be honest I don't know if I liked any better. There was a bit more "reality" in it, but not a whole lot. It still didn't really seem to have any internal logic. Not as much sentimentality, but still quite a lot. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I understood what they were going for but it came across as very frivolous. Instead of focusing on a core theme and dramatising it through the narrative, they were just picking up different character conflicts for a couple of episodes, using them and then dumping them. As I said, a lot of those characters were not essential to the plot at all. Wasn’t Akio’s fiancé only in like 2 episodes?
My problem with the visual metaphors was that seemed to be used in place of narrative, instead of supporting a narrative.
That along with the fact that the mastermind was dead all along. So what actually happened, and what point did it serve? |
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Aylinn
Posts: 1684 |
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I think the Black Rose saga shed some light on the characters and their relationship. And besides I liked the eerily resemblance of Mikage&Mamiya to Utena&Anthy.
Yeah, it didn't. Ikuhara doesn't make worlds with internal logic.
It clarified some relationships and since Mikage&Mamiya resembled Utena&Anthy, I think it was a way of showing what could have happened if Utena failed like Mikage. Mikage was close to wining, but failed and become forgotten. It mirrors the ending, in which Utena leaves the academy and becomes eventually forgotten by others. But unlike Mikage, Utena makes a big enough impact on Anthy's life to make her leave the academy. As Anthy leaves, the duels cannot be continued, so the Black Rose saga served as a foreshadowing of certain things and I suppose the difference indicates Utena succeeded. |
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Bonham
 Posts: 424 Location: NYC |
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I find this less problematic in Utena than in Penguindrum because the sheer unreality/fable-like setting supports the overuse use/reliance of visual metaphors Ikuhara is so found of. The symbols work on their own terms, and I don't recall them coming into conflict with any rules established in the Ohtori Academy. This isn't really the case with Penguindrum. It is set in the real-world, and even goes to far as to draw on a very specific real-world event. But there's a lot of inanities that are either ill-defined and don't work on a practical, narrative level. So the symbolism exists on its own, rather than being integrated in the narrative—which just strikes me as a copout. Satoshi Kon does the same thing towards the end of Paranoia Agent, and I think that's just as lazy. Dream logic works when it's set in a dream/fantastical environment, and not the real world. I've always had mixed feelings about Utena, even though I do like it a lot. There are a lot of fantastic individuals episodes (the Hosoda-directed episode with Wakaba is one of my favorites, and the Nanami episodes are generally hilarious), and some interesting ideas (no matter how repetitive or telegraphed). And Ikuhara sounds like a really intelligent guy based on his interviews. But I just don't find his brand of narrative realism or ritualistic/repetitive narrative structures that... well, compelling. It's more of an admiration than anything else. |
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