Forum - View topicAmerican Manga: Does it count?
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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Because most of them think that "Big Eyes + Small Mouths + Speed Lines + Decompression + Read 'Backwards' = Manga," which is immensely ignorant and incorrect. They're informed by a superficial understanding (if it can even be called that) with no appreciation or comprehension of the form of comics. It's like somewhat who is able to draw Dragon Ball Z characters but have no idea of how to actually draw. There is no manga style. If you think there is, you have not read a healthy variety of manga released in North America, much less those geared toward the countless demographics in Japan.
It's a comic, as Tamaria said. Whether you want to untangle the multi-country involvement or not is your choice. For nearly all cases, the shorthand (Japanese comics, "manga"; Korean comics, "manwha"; et cetera) is easily used, but I just fall back onto "comics" when audience and production becomes muddled. |
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mdo7
 Posts: 6308 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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A lot of people pull double standard when it come to manga not created in Japan. I know not all manga are like the same thing. Nobody answer my question, why do people attack OEL manga but not Manhwa, or Manhua? They are manga emulation? If people hate OEL manga, then should we hate anime based on Western stuff (Batman: Gotham Knights, Witchblade, and Halo Legends) also, because Japanese anime should be based on Japanese culture not Western culture. It seems like people want their manga to be made in Japan, or Asia. They don't want western countries to emulate manga because to them Japan is the only perfect country to do it, not western countries. I don't see Japan complaining about Western countries doing manga. As a matter of fact, former prime minister Taro Aso promoted global manga, and so does Kodansha. I also like to add that after seeing Halo Legends preview and the Iron Man, and Wolverine anime. It's possible that we may see one of our OEL/Global manga may end up getting a anime adaptation somewhere in the future. |
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RestLessone
 Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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First of all, manhwa is manhwa and manhua is manhua. They may share some stylistic similarities, and companies may them as manga, people not versed in Korean/Chinese comics say they are, and a few artists who choose to draw much of their inspiration from Japan (The Breaker springs to mind) might call it that or cause confusion. Rarely, however, do I hear of artists referring to their works as manga. Not to mention, manhwa has some distinct styles as well; yes, there is no true "manga style" or "manhwa style", but it's quite easy to tell (most) Korean and Japanese comics from each other. I personally think manhua is the most different out of the bunch, seeing as how short each volume is and how most series are printed in full color, among other things. But, these are words used to express comics from their country, and not as a way to describe only manga-influenced works. I think the annoyance people get from OEL (and other Western "manga") is the insistence to call them manga. Manga = published in Japan for Japanese audience. Manhwa = published in Korea for Korean audiences. Manhua = published in China for Chinese audiences. If a book is written by an American/English/etc author and a Korean artists draws it out (Yen Press in particular is fond of this), than it is a comic. Why does OEL/Western "manga" get a special privilege to be called what it is not? Furthermore, if it can be called manga, than why not manhwa? I have been influenced by countless things when developing my writing, which includes several other cultures. But they were just that--influences. Again, it really doesn't have much to do with the actual series, though i personally think some companies need to be a bit more choosy and pick series that actually have a nice plot and decent artwork--and after that actually advertise it instead of it expecting it to magically bring in sales. If Japan likes an OEL enough to make an anime from it, than good for them and the artists. If Japan wants to make any book/movie/series into an anime, then good for them. But don't go labeling that anime as American animation because of what influenced it/what it was based on. |
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adam_omega
 Posts: 256 Location: Seven Seas |
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In North America, the term "manga" is used by companies and bookstores as a blanket term to describe a type of book that is primarily black & white and sized around 5" x 7.5". It's simply a category term to ensure proper shelving in bookstores. As for the reason "manhwa" isn't used... Manhwa doesn't sell very well overall, so nobody really wants their book associated with that term. |
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mdo7
Posts: 6308 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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You do have a lot of point. Although I do remember Mark Crilley who did Miki Falls says he didn't want to call his work a manga despite his arts. But then again, manhua and manhwa are still emulation of manga.
Also, I like to add that double standard wapanese are the reason they complain about US doing manga-style comic. They always pull double standard these day (ie: playing American game in Japanese dub). The reason I guess they keep calling it manga because it seems like everybody is familiar with it. I know the Tokyopop's Warcraft one should be considered as Manhwa. I will agree with Adam_Omega on what he said.
Well, I remember Warrior Nun Areala from Ben Dunn almost got a anime adaptation. It never pass. However, do you read Princess Ai. There's been a rumor that it may get a anime adaptation in the future. Also, don't forget Megatokyo just came out in Japan and I haven't heard any report how it did in Japan. After seeing Halo Legends, a OEL manga into anime may happen and I would love to see that. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Uh no. I did answer exactly that question in the very post you quoted. Let me try this once more though. Reasons Manhua doesn't get bashed: -People don't even think about it. It's certainly possible that many people do feel the same way but they don't express that opinion or for that matter don't even realize they feel that way because Manhua is simply not something that comes up all that often. -It's siginifcantly more reasonable for Manhua to be similar to Japanese comics being that both are from Asian countries. It's similar to how nobody would likely fault British comics for resembling US ones. -It's not like manhua artists simply decided one day to entirely rip off manga style in lieu of whatever style is usual for your country because manga was popular which is sort of the case with a lot of OEL manga. -As was already mentioned by RestlessOne, Manhua does have it's own noticeable spin it usually puts on unlike OEL manga which often comes across as just a lame rip off with no real understanding or development of the style.
Again, no. What culture the content is based on is an entirely different thing than what style it uses.
See though you say emulate, I'd say rip off based on the bulk of work done so far. That's kind of the bottom line of the problem. If a work shows heavy influences from manga it's probably fine. However, in the vast majority of cases, if a work copies the manga style to such an extent that it is more or less indistinguishable from manga then it's probably not much more than a rip off. If the artist doesn't even add some manner of his own western spin on the style then odds are he's a bit of a hack just cashing in on something popular. P.S. This all is addressing the actual quality and content of OEL manga. This is not even addressing the initial issue many have which is with the term manga being applied to US manga style comics which is a separate issue not so much related to quality and content. It also is a large part of the reason people object to it though and not manhua. |
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RestLessone
Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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I understand that; I meant more when it comes to uses in society. I know that companies want those series correctly shelved, though I don't see why they can't refer to it as what it really is on websites. Same when I said manhwa--it really isn't as popular (unfortunately); but when a reader calls it manga, why not call in manhwa as well? The artist might not have been influenced by manhwa, but if it's true that manhwa "copies" (as some might say) from manga, than it would be one and the same.
Yes, they are influenced by manga, but they are not the same. People do not bash it because it isn't trying to be manga (except maybe The Breaker, though that series is pretty good). It's trying to be a good manhwa or manhua (which covers all comics). People get annoyed by OEL here when artists try to make manga, instead of just being influenced and creating an American comic. I have no problem with influences; it's more the incorrect labeling by people. I agree with ikillchicken, though; it is much more reasonable for China/Korea to naturally have been influenced by Japan, especially with their close proximity.
I'll agree that there are definitely both sides to this--some people can't even take the influences. Unfortunately for them, there are manga titles (mostly ones based on American super heroes) that have an American style to them. I don't hear anyone complaining about those. I can see being annoyed by American artists calling their works, but why get mad at those who were truly influenced and are not trying to created their own manga?
Yeah, I think it'd be great if some of our series came out there. I don't have any problems with that, and at least it would show that not all series coming out here are lame rip-offs with no plot. I don't read Princess Ai, but I have read a bit of Megatokyo from the library. |
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wicked86
Posts: 30 Location: DE |
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I'm kinda lame in this aspect but if I know its an American manga then I won't bother. It just doesn't seem authentic.
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mdo7
Posts: 6308 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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or maybe double standard, if Korea or China (Hong Kong to be exact) do a manga, it's OK. If it's US, ZOMG, it sucks!!!
I've seen dub haters watching Disney movie in Japanese dub only. Also, I've found them playing Bioshock or Killzone 2 in Japanese dub. dub haters=hypocrite if they're playing Japanese dub of American stuff.
OEL manga with good story do exist, they deserved to have a anime adaptation. If we can have Batman, Halo, the upcoming Iron Man and Wolverine as an anime adaptation. Why not OEL manga, I remember some Manhwa got anime adaptation. |
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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No, they make manwha and manhua. Because of cultural influences the common styles resemble common Japanse styles, but their works are still recognisable as Korean or Chinese. It has developed beyond mere imitation into something that they can call their own. A large portion of "OEL manga" is just desperately trying to be Japanese. It's pathetic. We have nothing against American comics that have been influenced by comics from other countries, those influences can be a truely good thing, but the creator also has to put something of himself in there. Anyway, this has been stated thousands of times before, but I'll do it again: we don't refuse to use the word "OEL manga" because of quality issues, but because it's so vague. There is a perfectly good word in English for these works: comics. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah!!!!! It must be that (as opposed to the bunch of much more likely reasons I listed) because mdo7 of teh internet states that it is so! This conversation is going to go nowhere if all you're going to do is insist that you're baseless conclusion is correct. There is something I forgot to mention initially though which I will now add. Have you ever seen the reaction fans give to knock off chinese/korean animation that mimics anime? They hate it. Unless anime fans are just of a whole different ideology than manga fans I think that kind of blows your theory. I do certainly think fans can be biased. However, I also think they can differentiate between decent work and knockoff garbage. Hence why they don't mind Manhua but hate Chinese animation.
Yeah, that's fine. Show me a good OEL manga and I'll certainly encourage an adaptation. I don't think most people would suggest that any OEL manga is inherently bad purely by virtue of being a US comic done in a manga style. It's just that in my experience, in the vast majority of cases the reason that someone chooses to do this is that they're a bit of a hack without the talent to put their own spin on it and/or are just cashing in on what's popular. So basically, while someone could make a good OEL manga, it seems fairly unlikely. On the rare occasion that someone actually does though, then I've got nothing against it. (Well, I still don't think it should be called manga but that's semantics). |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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I promised myself I'd never get into another conversation about ersatz manga (or anything else for that matter) if mdo7 was anywhere to be seen but...I would just like to point out that most of the manhua that's been released in English over the years originated in Hong Kong and looks (in terms of art style, page composition, colour, trim size, captioning etc.) a hell of a lot more like mainstream American comics than mainstream Japanese comics.
And many of the better manhwa artists (e.g. Kim Dong Hwa, Seyeong O, Byun Byung-Jun) have very distinctive styles of their own and draw on a wide variety of influences, both foreign and domestic. Seyeong O's stuff, for example, is more reminiscent of Will Eisner than it is of Osamu Tezuka. Manhwa and manhua are not necessarily stylistically similar to the generic anime-style art that mdo7 thinks of as the "manga" style and nor, for that matter, are a large proportion of actual Japanese manga. |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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A couple things that those who insist upon American "manga" should consider:
1) Learn what "begging the question" is. 2) Define this supposed "manga style," and show that you have read numerous series from numerous demographics and eras to support this definition. If you cannot do either, please cease your assertions. |
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Rozarie
Posts: 10 |
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Oh my Geeks are so obsessive... ( because I can't call you otakus it will be the same as saying here that manga is a "style" and an other debate would begin )
Manga > Comics with a Certain Type of Visual & Literary Art Published in Japan. ( Because hey. They Also Publish Spider Man. But That doesn't make it a Manga Right? ) The RAW word Manga does indeed only means Comic. Which range from Sailor Moon to Spider Man. Same with Anime. Anime the raw word Only Means Animation. Other Example Mecha, mecha can only mean Mechanical *Mecha Pen* BUT Japanese THEM SELVES Tend to make one Raw word into a more Complex word. Example: Shojo = Girl But Shojo Manga = Girl's Comic = Genre = Style of Art And The genre has an art style and a story style How ever an American Comic that it's directed towards a young female audience (which they are not existent ) does not make it a "Shojo Manga" even tough the raw word means "Girl' comic" lets say... Barbie Comic http://www.newkadia.com/Covers/L/B/Barbie/barbie39.jpg http://www.lambiek.net/artists/b/brigman_june/brigman_june_91_barbie.jpg It cant be called a "shojo manga" in japan. It is a "comiku" or "gyaru comiku" if you have to call it an specific way. why? 1.- The Art Style. The Publishers. The Format. The Artist. Even Tough The Audience it's the same. All the other factors avoid it to be a "shojo manga" The Manga "style" comics. There's really no way to define it. Really. because Disney does have "big eyes, deformed anatomic proportions, brilliant colors , etc" all things you can say about a "manga style" but that doesn't make it an anime You could say there is "east style comics" ( although chinese comics manhua does really have a very different style from manga BUT. The format style is similar as well as the plots the same with manwha ) and "west style comics" . Manga is Comics originally published works in Japan that have a certain Art Style and a certain Plot Style that developed in the the 30's in its modern form. (because "manga" or "japanese comics" before the 30's were quite different than it is today ) I MY SELF Create "east style" graphic novels directed towards a female audience. I don't call it "shojo manga" Because I KNOW many geeks would get offended because 1.- I'm Not Japanese 2.- I don't publish in Japan 3.- I don't have the artistic level to be called a professional Although I have only studied that genre of comic which is "Shojo Manga" ( NOR I never touched an American French or national comic ever in my life , nor I care to do so because I don't find it appealing my self. That doesn't mean it's not good I simply don't find my self related to them ) but still I don't have the requirements to call my work "Manga" and It's hard like to call it one way. We cant call it comic because any real comic artist or geek would bitchslap us. We cant call it manga because any geek or Japanese would bitchslap us. Even tough it follows all the rules of the "art style" developed by Japanese during the post-war period , we still cannot call it Manga due respect. I finally decided to call it Graphic Novel. Which involves more , why? because it's not a comic. but it's not a manga either (because although the "visual" style is the same, it does not qualifies because it does not have all the factors it needs to be a manga ) . But it's art and plot style are more those of a "novel" And It really does not offend that much of a population just a pair of people who really REALLY needs to get laid like ASAP So ... Manga = Originally Published in Japan . Has a Certain Art Style Based or Sub Based / Inspired in the Art Style developed by Osamu Tezuka Primarily, Shotaro Ishinomori, Fujio Akatsuka and Fujiko Fujio in the Post-war Period in Japan . And Has a variety of Plot genres which can be for anyone of any genre sexual orientation age or genre . American, European , Asian, or Oceanic , comic inspired by the previous can be called "Graphic Novel" in order to not offend anyone . ( AND you Americans really get pissed of everything you need a reality check really REALLY or get laid I don't know but..srsly people complaining about a word and a Christmas tree on a public area it's just stupid. ) |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah, thanks for that. Cause I was just thinking: Why can't someone revive this old topic just to restate a bunch of stuff that's already been said in the form of a pretentious rant about their own shitty amateur comics and how they can't call it what they want because everyone is a nerd and needs to get laid and Americans suck and waaahhh waaahh waaah.
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