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JoelBurger
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:43 pm
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Touma55 wrote: | How is it unwarranted? His games do poorly in Japan so he is trying to appeal to the west. I see that as being a very real possibility. It definitely wouldn't be the first time someone tryed to take advantage of the community im so glad to be a part of. And how did I try and silence him? If anything it seems like you are the one trying to silence me. |
It's unwarranted because you are working under a false assumption: that any support for LGBTQ+ people must be a product of Western "pandering", as though it's otherwise impossible for a Japanese person to think these things. The fact that you can only speak in vagaries about "someone tryed [sic] to take advantage of the community" speaks to how you have no actual basis for your claims, using invisible boogeymen to shut down any legitimate beliefs and actions from creators like Uchikoshi. And that it how you're trying to silence him, by attempting to delegitimize his stance and treat it as somehow abnormal or merely a product of pandering (with the underlying assumption, as others have made in response to Uchikoshi, that Japan is a hivemind where nobody could possibly think these things without Western influence).
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Jessica Hart
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 219
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:53 pm
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote: | I'm curious what your definition of "flopped" is, because the game sold within the expected parameters and even got a sequel. I can assure you the people it concerns do not care that it didn't sell like hotcakes, and the fans don't either |
I would say a game that only sold a bit over 2000 copies is a pretty big flop no matter how it's spun. This is the internet so it's always safe to assume people are always being disingenuous, but the people who say sales don't matter tend to be the people who want to play damage control when confronted with the fact their work is not widely accepted or representative of something.
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OncelostLu
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:54 pm
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I don't know if it could even make sense in terms of story, but I'd love another Zero Escape. AI and AI:NI were good, but being able to play the first room from 999 in AI:NI made me hungry for more of that.
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chrisb
![](/bbs/phpBB2/images/subscriber-green.png) Subscriber
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 632
Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:05 pm
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Jessica Hart wrote: | I can see why the game flopped now. |
Yes, a nonbinary robot eyeball that doesn’t make an appearance in the game is why it flopped.
The Ai Somnium series has some of the best storytelling and the worst so let’s be real. The game is niche because it’s a puzzle/visual novel of mixed quality. The Last of Us 2 features a lesbian lead and was a financial success in the US and Japan.
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livin_large
Joined: 10 Nov 2021
Posts: 107
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:28 pm
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chrisb wrote: | Yes, a nonbinary robot eyeball that doesn’t make an appearance in the game is why it flopped |
I don't know? That alone sounds pretty weird and unappealing. So yes, I would say that's sort of a turn off for people. It's like those weird cartoon and comic pitches you see where the entire premise is someone's race, gender, or sexual identity. Unless you're the kind of person who makes that your entire personality it can't be that appealing to people
Quote: | The Last of Us 2 features a lesbian lead and was a financial success in the US and Japan. |
I don't think that's a good example. You're using a sequel to a popular game that suddenly threw a bunch of that stuff into it to a lot of fan backlash from what I remember. Also, didn't they cancel all the DLC plans for the game? It sold a lot less than the first one at any rate. And now they're remaking the first one. I'm sure it still had franchise fans support it out of brand loyalty like anything else, but it's like when American comics or movies suddenly make James Bond or Batman gay and then brag how a gay hero is successful. That's kind of cheating if you just trojan horse this stuff into an already successful franchise that diehard fans will watch regardless.
Has there been a super successful original IP that focuses on this stuff? Kind of like how people have been trying to make a new Harry Potter ever since Rowling said she doesn't support trans people but none of the queer focused Harry Potter alternatives have never reached a fraction of the success despite people pushing them.. I think if you set out define yourself based on some immutable traits alone then you're not really focused on telling a good story so not many people are going to be interested.
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Shay Guy
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2231
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:02 pm
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livin_large wrote: |
chrisb wrote: | Yes, a nonbinary robot eyeball that doesn’t make an appearance in the game is why it flopped |
I don't know? That alone sounds pretty weird and unappealing. |
What, the fact that the eyeball doesn’t make an appearance?
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 628
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:34 pm
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Jessica Hart wrote: |
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote: | I'm curious what your definition of "flopped" is, because the game sold within the expected parameters and even got a sequel. I can assure you the people it concerns do not care that it didn't sell like hotcakes, and the fans don't either |
I would say a game that only sold a bit over 2000 copies is a pretty big flop no matter how it's spun. This is the internet so it's always safe to assume people are always being disingenuous, but the people who say sales don't matter tend to be the people who want to play damage control when confronted with the fact their work is not widely accepted or representative of something. |
Nice try at misrepresenting the sales figures but
Quote: | The PlayStation 4 version ranked 27th with 2,267 copies sold, while the Nintendo Switch version was 33rd with 1,767 copies sold in the Dengeki top 50.[31] The PC version of the game was among the best-selling new releases of the month on Steam.[32][c] |
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vampiyan
Joined: 25 Oct 2021
Posts: 64
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:54 pm
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all-tsun-no-dere wrote: | Nice try at misrepresenting the sales figures but
The PlayStation 4 version ranked 27th with 2,267 copies sold, while the Nintendo Switch version was 33rd with 1,767 copies sold in the Dengeki top 50.[31] The PC version of the game was among the best-selling new releases of the month on Steam.[32][c] |
That seems like a minor thing to correct. It comes across like those Snopes articles that try to fact check but just sound kind of pedantic.
Poster claimed game sold a bit over 2000 copies
Verdict: FALSE. It actually sold a bit over 4000 copies!
Unless they mean the sequel sold less But it seems the fact that the game is not popular in Japan remains unchanged. The only time I ever see discussion of this game is when people post that dialog of the blue-haired girl talking about how awesome LGBT people are. It seems like that's the only reason people seem to care about the game. For a topic that isn't important in Japan I can see why it's not really talked about outside that specific English speaking fandom niche which cares about that sort of thing.
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FeelMyBlade
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 144
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:26 pm
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JoelBurger wrote: | And that it how you're trying to silence him, by attempting to delegitimize his stance and treat it as somehow abnormal or merely a product of pandering (with the underlying assumption, as others have made in response to Uchikoshi, that Japan is a hivemind where nobody could possibly think these things without Western influence). |
I think it's pretty well known Uchikoshi's works have always done poorly in Japan and had more success overseas so it's not exactly a wrong assumption in this case. In general it is a bit telling when the few Japanese creatives who care about this stuff are so heavily involved in western fandom and speak in English on social medi alot. At the very least they seem to be aware that these kinds of issues are more prevelent in the west than in Japan so they'll find more acceptance and engagement outside of their own country.
The only Uchikoshi game I've played was 9 Door way back on the DS. It was alright. The twist was lame and it was filled with huge infodumps of random pointless information. I don't recall any porikore stuff in it though. Is it truly farfetched to think the more involved Uchikoshi got in the western fandom he began to adopt those views?
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BadNewsBlues
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6187
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:49 pm
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all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote: |
Quote: | The PlayStation 4 version ranked 27th with 2,267 copies sold, while the Nintendo Switch version was 33rd with 1,767 copies sold in the Dengeki top 50.[31] The PC version of the game was among the best-selling new releases of the month on Steam.[32][c] |
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Is there a particular reason the PS4 version outsold the Switch version?
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Cardcaptor Takato
Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 5045
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:51 pm
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Can ANN not do something about the transphobia in these kind of threads?
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JustMonika
Joined: 17 Jan 2022
Posts: 1100
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
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vampiyan wrote: |
all-tsun-no-dere wrote: | Nice try at misrepresenting the sales figures but
The PlayStation 4 version ranked 27th with 2,267 copies sold, while the Nintendo Switch version was 33rd with 1,767 copies sold in the Dengeki top 50.[31] The PC version of the game was among the best-selling new releases of the month on Steam.[32][c] |
That seems like a minor thing to correct. It comes across like those Snopes articles that try to fact check but just sound kind of pedantic.
Poster claimed game sold a bit over 2000 copies
Verdict: FALSE. It actually sold a bit over 4000 copies!
Unless they mean the sequel sold less But it seems the fact that the game is not popular in Japan remains unchanged. The only time I ever see discussion of this game is when people post that dialog of the blue-haired girl talking about how awesome LGBT people are. It seems like that's the only reason people seem to care about the game. For a topic that isn't important in Japan I can see why it's not really talked about outside that specific English speaking fandom niche which cares about that sort of thing. |
I own both games but haven't played them yet but the only comments I read about them from the mainstream public is that they're absolute masterpieces and have some of the best stories in video games.
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Ghostswillpassthroughhere
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:03 pm
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God, why is it that when a non-binary or trans character shows up in any form of media it's instantly marked as 'pandering'
Like we exist, it's not like they made us up. Can't I just have some representation of my gender without people getting all upset about it, it's exhausting
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 1440
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:25 pm
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FeelMyBlade wrote: | I think it's pretty well known Uchikoshi's works have always done poorly in Japan and had more success overseas so it's not exactly a wrong assumption in this case. |
It's an assumption based on such a deeply cynical and morally derelict worldview that treating it as reasonable says more about the person making the argument, imo. The idea is that anyone (in this case, Uchikoshi) cannot hold sincere beliefs that aren't solely centered on their own person, that empathy or allyship is inherently a ploy for money/clout/attention/whatehaveyou. It's essentially saying "there's no way any person could actually believe trans and nonbinary are worthy of respect or dignity, so anyone saying they do is lying" which, again, says more about the person saying it than anyone else.
In this case it's also intersecting with this blindingly stupid idea that Japan, as an entire country, does not have LGBT people or anyone who supports them or even believes they exist, and any Japanese person who says otherwise is lying or has been tricked by some cabal of western activists brainwashing the poor, unsuspecting Japanese people. So it's both good old fashioned orientalism, but packaged in an insultingly infantilizing wrapper to support this fantasy version of Japan that doesn't have anything equivalent to the political nuance and complexity of every other country on the planet.
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Bonham
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 423
Location: NYC
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:02 pm
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lossthief wrote: |
FeelMyBlade wrote: | I think it's pretty well known Uchikoshi's works have always done poorly in Japan and had more success overseas so it's not exactly a wrong assumption in this case. |
It's an assumption based on such a deeply cynical and morally derelict worldview that treating it as reasonable says more about the person making the argument, imo. The idea is that anyone (in this case, Uchikoshi) cannot hold sincere beliefs that aren't solely centered on their own person, that empathy or allyship is inherently a ploy for money/clout/attention/whatehaveyou. It's essentially saying "there's no way any person could actually believe trans and nonbinary are worthy of respect or dignity, so anyone saying they do is lying" which, again, says more about the person saying it than anyone else.
In this case it's also intersecting with this blindingly stupid idea that Japan, as an entire country, does not have LGBT people or anyone who supports them or even believes they exist, and any Japanese person who says otherwise is lying or has been tricked by some cabal of western activists brainwashing the poor, unsuspecting Japanese people. So it's both good old fashioned orientalism, but packaged in an insultingly infantilizing wrapper to support this fantasy version of Japan that doesn't have anything equivalent to the political nuance and complexity of every other country on the planet. |
The casual orientalism and aggressive anti-LGBT attitudes displayed in this thread from the poster you quoted, as well as others like Touma55 and FunkyDude88 comes from either a severe bad faith reading, ignorance of the fact that LGBT people exist in Japan (I guess all of those manga and anime, two of their favorite media, about LGBT people are just pandering to Westerners, including those that have never been licensed?), or histrionic reactionaries trying to dismiss this. Perhaps it's a combination thereof, and the idea that LGBT people like myself and others exist throughout the world, including Japan, and history is an affront to their sensibilities.
Considering all of that...
Cardcaptor Takato wrote: | Can ANN not do something about the transphobia in these kind of threads? |
I'm seconding this. These types will try to play dumb and pretend that it's not really about that, but we routinely see them getting upset at these specific topics.
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