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Panino Manino
Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 748
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:09 pm
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ranran-001 wrote: |
So its not enough to not like the show. You want to attack people who enjoy it as insane as well. |
Hiroki not Takuya wrote: | I don't expect to change anyone's mind but when you start saying "everyone but me is wrong/crazy" is when you should start thinking instead of opining which is why I pointed something out. Just saying something doesn't make it true. |
That people enjoy something not that good is acceptable.
But in this case I joined the discussion" and the problem is that a lot of people were justifying Naofumi's actions the same way the anime was. Like it made complete sense and he never did anything wrong, that he had his reasons and excuses. Like people couldn't admit that what they were enjoying wasn't well written and had some questionable morals, that's the problem.
You also think that example I mentioned about Raphatalia receiving another slave seal don't have all sorts of problems?
Much controversy could be avoided if only the anime didn't mad such efforts to make Naofumi seems "good". For example, if he was in fact more of an "anti-hero", assuming that he had questionable morals and actions in the story, this episode of the slave seal could make a lot o sense for me. That's why I said that the "framing" is wrong, that anime insists on having this air that Naofumi is objectively right and good in all situations.
Do you disagree with this?
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Hiroki not Takuya
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2598
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:52 pm
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Hi! If I won't get banned or deleted for going off topic (best/worst choices 2019) I'd gladly discuss! I happen to have liked the anime writing because in places I think they realistically represented Naofumi's POV and reactions and because he really did little "wrong" or deserving of his treatment. Of course it was a writing setup which did get lopsided which isn't "good" writing but it progressed beyond that. Overall, as I said before, the writing has elements that show it wasn't "bad" and had thought behind it. Certainly, there were much worse written shows which is my point that SH wasn't the worst.
The whole "slavery morality" issue I think people mightily confused and I would never support slavery. The show merely acknowledged slavery happened, showed really bad aspects to it and had Naofumi operating to the best capacity possible in the society by buying Raphtalia and Filo and not treating them as slaves (except very briefly). He could have not bought them but owing to his lack of abilities, he really needed someone to compliment his lack and since it was obvious the king and society at large wasn't going to help, he was forced to it. I think that is indictment of that society and not a "bad" moral choice on Naofumi. It doesn't make slavery "right" and fans of the show I don't see making that case at all.
About lovely Raphtalia, there would be all sorts of moral issues if she reluctantly agreed to return to slavery by pressure or subterfuge but as the show was written, she acknowledged that Naofumi helped her, supported her and did not treat her as a master (except very briefly). Because of that, she didn't want to be released which she states and makes the comparison that people forcing you to do things against your will is part and parcel of slavery. Her free choice to get a new crest wasn't a choice to return to a life of slavery but was an expression of her wish to stay with Naofumi in a relationship of complementary equals and continue the good life he provided. Do you know that in ancient societies, people willingly became "bond slaves" as opposed to being made slaves by force because they recognized a master who could give them a better life than they could for themselves? That is what Raphtalia did and I see no problem with it.
So to finish, you are might be right about the lopsided writing possibly contributing to the controversy, but I saw plenty of people posting how such-and-such was just "bad" and "wrong" as I think you are insinuating on "first principals". I really didn't see how the show attempted to make Naofumi justified, right and good in all instances. What I did see was him reacting in an understandable manner to poor treatment and being gracious when the treatment stopped being such. The writing really wasn't structured to make him an "anti-hero" but was about his progression to being a better person.
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 1440
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:16 pm
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Hiroki not Takuya wrote: |
The whole "slavery morality" issue I think people mightily confused and I would never support slavery. The show merely acknowledged slavery happened, showed really bad aspects to it and had Naofumi operating to the best capacity possible in the society by buying Raphtalia and Filo and not treating them as slaves (except very briefly). |
By "not treating them as slaves" I take it you mean he doesn't abuse/mistreat/starve them, but the issue people take up with the setup isn't that they imagine Naofumi is being mean to them. The issue is that Naofumi owning them necessarily means they cannot have an equal relationship with him as companions.No matter how nice he is and how much generic anime RPG party shenanigans they get into, they are still his property and thus cannot meaningfully employ agency towards him. The story sidesteps this by writing them as character who never have a meaningful or significant disagreement with Naofumi about...well anything really.
Quote: | He could have not bought them but owing to his lack of abilities, he really needed someone to compliment his lack and since it was obvious the king and society at large wasn't going to help, he was forced to it. I think that is indictment of that society and not a "bad" moral choice on Naofumi. |
If it's trying to be a scathing critique of society for "forcing" Naofumi into becoming a slave owner, it kind of falls apart when a) Raphtalia is freed and immediately makes him a slave owner again (a moment that is played for emotional catharsis similar to a love confession, ftr) and b) makes the slaver he patronizes a comedic side character who's treated like a mischievous scamp. Heck it's even established that Naofumi's success actively increases the slaver's business. He becomes a walking advertisement for the personal benefits of owning slaves and the series never so much as pauses to ask about how messed up that is.
Quote: | About lovely Raphtalia, there would be all sorts of moral issues if she reluctantly agreed to return to slavery by pressure or subterfuge but as the show was written, she acknowledged that Naofumi helped her, supported her and did not treat her as a master (except very briefly). Because of that, she didn't want to be released which she states and makes the comparison that people forcing you to do things against your will is part and parcel of slavery. Her free choice to get a new crest wasn't a choice to return to a life of slavery but was an expression of her wish to stay with Naofumi in a relationship of complementary equals. |
I'm not sure how this has to be said but if Raphtalia wanted to stay with Naofumi as "complementary equals" she was entirely within in her power to do so without re-enslaving herself. No matter how nice the owner is, a Master/Slave relationship (especially one backed up by magic that can torture/kill said slave) is an inherently unequal one. For as much as the show tries to play it up as a selfless act of love, Raphtalia re-enslaves herself because Naofumi is so intensely unwilling to trust her that the only way he'll stay with her is if she literally cannot go against him for any reason. I really hope I don't have to explain how that's an inherently messed up relationship dynamic that the show never explores beyond handwaving it with "well he's nice to her."
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Key
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18341
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:04 pm
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Panino Manino wrote: | And there's so many scenes and happenings that are baffling, boggles the mind how can any person writes something like that, and any person watches and likes that. |
Although your side of the discussion has generally been civil, the bolded part is where you cross the line and why you were getting some kickback. That's the point where you are being critical of the people who watch and like the show rather than the show itself.
I generally agree with the main criticisms of Shield Hero, and wouldn't put it anywhere near the top rankings for 2019 because of that, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near the bottom, either. I saw a number of series within its own genre that I found considerably worse, much less series in general.
lossthief wrote: | For as much as the show tries to play it up as a selfless act of love, Raphtalia re-enslaves herself because Naofumi is so intensely unwilling to trust her that the only way he'll stay with her is if she literally cannot go against him for any reason. |
Been a few months since I watched the series, but I'm reasonably sure that wasn't the way it went down. Naofumi even tried to insist that she didn't need to do it, but Raphtalia saw it as an ultimate act of devotion.
Now, I don't dispute that her logic there is somewhat wonky (she is taking literally the characterization of being in love with someone as being a slave to them), but whatever.
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Panino Manino
Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 748
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:25 pm
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Also, despite the premise that "the world is against him, he had no choice", he meets some friendly people already early on that helps him a good bit.
Key wrote: |
Although your side of the discussion has generally been civil, the bolded part is where you cross the line and why you were getting some kickback. That's the point where you are being critical of the people who watch and like the show rather than the show itself.
I generally agree with the main criticisms of Shield Hero, and wouldn't put it anywhere near the top rankings for 2019 because of that, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near the bottom, either. I saw a number of series within its own genre that I found considerably worse, much less series in general. |
I was being honest, I really can't understand, my mind short circuits discussing about this anime. How can someone watches something like that (the second slave seal) and understands that Raphtalia was putting herself in a "relationship of equals"? Yes, it was from her own "free will", and that's another problem that will never be addressed, that she feels now so comfortable in being a slave. Not something to be proud of.
Again, boggles my mind and I also don't understand what's the big problem in me saying that I feel like this here on ANN, that it's always denouncing "toxic content" in anime.
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zrnzle500
Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3768
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:53 pm
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Panino Manino wrote: | Again, boggles my mind and I also don't understand what's the big problem in me saying that I feel like this here on ANN, that it's always denouncing "toxic content" in anime. |
You can denounce the content all you want. The problem is when you cross the line from denouncing content to denouncing the people who watch and enjoy the show that content comes from, as you did in this line from your post that the Shield Hero fans took issue with:
Panino Manino wrote: |
"But a lot of people watched and like", yes, thanks to remind me how crazy people today are. |
In short, denounce the show, not the people who watch it. At least not for merely watching or enjoying the show. While I have had my disagreements with Hiroki not Takuya (including on Shield Hero), he and other fans of the show (or any other show) deserve that modicum of respect.
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ranran-001
Joined: 25 Oct 2018
Posts: 541
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:39 pm
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Panino Manino wrote: | Also, despite the premise that "the world is against him, he had no choice", he meets some friendly people already early on that helps him a good bit.
Key wrote: |
Although your side of the discussion has generally been civil, the bolded part is where you cross the line and why you were getting some kickback. That's the point where you are being critical of the people who watch and like the show rather than the show itself.
I generally agree with the main criticisms of Shield Hero, and wouldn't put it anywhere near the top rankings for 2019 because of that, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near the bottom, either. I saw a number of series within its own genre that I found considerably worse, much less series in general. |
I was being honest, I really can't understand, my mind short circuits discussing about this anime. How can someone watches something like that (the second slave seal) and understands that Raphtalia was putting herself in a "relationship of equals"? Yes, it was from her own "free will", and that's another problem that will never be addressed, that she feels now so comfortable in being a slave. Not something to be proud of.
Again, boggles my mind and I also don't understand what's the big problem in me saying that I feel like this here on ANN, that it's always denouncing "toxic content" in anime. |
I watch shows like Shield Hero because it puts an eye on a person who HAS to make bad decisions in order to survive.
Does that mean I endorse misogyny? Slavery? No.
Its the same reason why films like Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, and Psycho exist and have an audience.
That some people want this show to be a moral polemic against the things they walked in with is just unreasonable from any perspective. Don't like it, fine, don't go around and attack people that enjoy the show.
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killjoy_the
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 2468
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:00 pm
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I missed all the hubbub travelling so I will present my opinion without reading the 9 pages of posts. I'm sure it'll be fine.
Best character is a little tough. Easy answer is Reigen from Mob Psycho, as his little arc was wonderful but he was already great even before that so it almost feels like cheating. If I'm only counting new characters, then I do really like Sonezaki from Maidens. Sappy romance is my cup of tea.
Best moment I won't choose, and will instead list a few. Mob Psycho 100's "My master is a good person" capped off that arc beautifully, Dororo calling Jukai "mother", Araragi's smooth line towards Senjougahara in Zoku Owari, Maiden's Sonezaki stepping on her boyfriend's shadow in a power stance, "do you love this world?" from the start of Gundam Build Divers: Re-Rise, and lastly chronologically, Red Riot from Hero Academia.
Best song has to be an ED or OP? 'because if not I'm going with TRAIN TRAIN on Maidens. If it does, my pick of Mix's first OP. I had it open on youtube for the second half of the show, because the downgrade was unforgivable.
I don't have a top 5 this year because only 3 anime were things I thought were great, and Zoku Owarimonogatari is one of them not mentioned by the writers. Nisio's self aware about how closure has kind of already been given to this story and whips something wonderful.
Oh right, worst. That I completed - Dumbbell. Nanatsu is still ongoing but will be worse when it ends. That I dropped, Africa Salaryman and Ao-chan Can't Study were both terrible comedies. Most other stuff I dropped just left me bored instead of with a strong opinion either way, except for Bocchi. I was supposed to love it, felt really disappointed.
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Panino Manino
Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 748
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:00 pm
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ranran-001 wrote: |
I watch shows like Shield Hero because it puts an eye on a person who HAS to make bad decisions in order to survive.
Does that mean I endorse misogyny? Slavery? No.
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My confusion is not about that, it's not that I'm thinking people who likes endorses those things, is only about how the logic behind the story and characters makes no apparent sense.
The anime presentes a situation, that develops in a certain way, and concludes with the characters making a decision. I pay attention and try to follow the events but I get to some point where the gears derail and I get lost not understanding how the anime got to that conclusion.
Do you understand?
And that's why I question, "yes, I know that you likes this, but are you seeing the same here?", and then the other person responds "justifying", to prove that it all makes sense like Hiroki did earlier.
Panino Manino wrote: | people were justifying Naofumi's actions the same way the anime was. Like it made complete sense and he never did anything wrong, that he had his reasons and excuses. Like people couldn't admit that what they were enjoying wasn't well written |
And that all events were following their logic conclusion amid that contradictory world building.
That's what boggles my mind.
ranran-001 wrote: |
That some people want this show to be a moral polemic against the things they walked in with is just unreasonable from any perspective. Don't like it, fine, don't go around and attack people that enjoy the show. |
I was there at the beginning when that happened, and I was one of those who actually went out there to defended this anime from those attacks. That was just the outrage of the weak, but seeing that it wasn't all that bad and wasn't intentional like some people were denouncing didn't prevented me from seeing all the other problems in the writing.
And here we are again having this same discussion again, back to episode one.
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Hiroki not Takuya
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2598
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:02 am
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Panino Manino wrote: | ...The anime presentes a situation, that develops in a certain way, and concludes with the characters making a decision. I pay attention and try to follow the events but I get to some point where the gears derail and I get lost not understanding how the anime got to that conclusion....Do you understand?... and then the other person responds "justifying", to prove that it all makes sense like Hiroki did earlier....That's what boggles my mind.
ranran-001 wrote: | That some people want this show to be a moral polemic against the things they walked in with is just unreasonable from any perspective. Don't like it, fine, don't go around and attack people that enjoy the show. |
...And here we are again having this same discussion again, back to episode one. |
In the interest of having a discussion, maybe you could elaborate on specifics and supposed conclusions of the anime that you are having trouble with? So far, it isn't possible to have a true discussion without that. I was specific in addressing what I liked about the show and responses to your earlier observations and by calling that justification covers for an assumption that is not valid. I'm not trying to justify anything and the anime isn't trying to make some argument or come to some conclusion, it is a story and it does make sense. It seems that you and LossThief are wanting what ranran-001 mentioned.
Panino Manino wrote: | ...I really can't understand, my mind short circuits discussing about this anime. How can someone watches something like that (the second slave seal) and understands that Raphtalia was putting herself in a "relationship of equals"? Yes, it was from her own "free will", and that's another problem that will never be addressed, that she feels now so comfortable in being a slave. |
lossthief wrote: | ...The issue is that Naofumi owning them necessarily means they cannot have an equal relationship with him as companions...they are still his property and thus cannot meaningfully employ agency towards him... |
To the extent that Naofumi doesn't order Raphtalia against her wishes thus enforcing the slave crest, the relationship is independent of her "standing" as a slave. There would be no operational difference with or without it and since Naofumi never enforces the crest, treats her as an equal and Raphtalia is free to disagree with him and act independently as she does in fact do, I assert that there is no inherent inequality.
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Tanteikingdomkey
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2348
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:38 am
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steve jones obviously didn't watch High school prodigies have it easy even in another world if he was actually choosing his worst series by it's politics/ saying something you find ethically reprehensible.
I am not saying shield hero is prefect at all (it really isn't) but it doesn't actually talk about and deal with racism and the effects it has on people as it's central point. the whole reason naofumi gets framed is because he is supposed to be the champion of the demihumans does it do that wrongly, I don't think so necessarily.the execution is not the best, and naofumi is 100% a power fantasy character for the world is corrupt and evil and I'm the only one who can solve it. the show doesn't have nuance but it actually knows what it is, and will actively invest into making the things that it does spend time on worthwhile and interesting I think. Also a major point of the show I think is supposed to be him coming out of that power fantasy mind set, which I think is a healthy thing to show someone in that mindset, that you don't need the entire world to agree with you, all the time you really just need to make a few really close relationship with people who understand you.
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Crispy45
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 363
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:49 am
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tanteidonkey wrote: | steve jones obviously didn't watch High school prodigies have it easy even in another world if he was actually choosing his worst series by it's politics/ saying something you find ethically reprehensible. |
I can't really think of anything someone would find objectionable in Prodiges that isn't just the usual isekai / fanservice stuff. I suppose there's the whole colonizing theme to it, but that's not really a big deal. I think you're mis-remembering just how much of a stink Shield Hero caused here both in the forums and the reviews. Also the timing it came out, in the middle of a few high profile real world scandal cases probably irked some people. Steve himself seemed to take it personally given his recurring digs and hatred of the series over the year
I don't think anyone's really going to convince someone to like Shield Hero if they're that put off by certain events in it. We've seen people write off shows for political reason before. And I'm sure they in turn might find it unfathomable why anyone would like a show with said themes.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:00 pm
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I think a big part of what creates shouting matches over Shield Hero is when people basically talk past eachother and never get quite to the real emotional center of this.
One of the big things to consider is that Crunchyroll spent a ton of money and time heavily promoting this show. They promoted it relentlessly in a way they've never done, until Dr. Stone, their next coproduction. Promotion does count for a whole lot - and that 2019 was such a polarized year politically for anime fandom further inflamed things.
A lot of the "Well, I liked it" arguments are predicated on "this is how it actually would be" or somehow find the show's slavery and misogyny pragmatic and realistic in some way, because it's justified somehow by the story - this is commonly referred to as the "Thermian Argument", from the film Galaxy Quest, referencing a species of aliens that took the movie's fictional Star Trek clone to be sacred texts and thought that was actually how the world worked. To someone like me - it's deeply depressing that some people see the world that way and devalue our shared human rights in favor of a personal supremacy narrative. Shield Hero could not be further from the way I see the world - and in my opinion, it's written from a bitter, childish perception that everyone is stupid, wrong and weak except for the Strong White Guy, with absolutely zero respect for women's rights, their autonomy, and the brutal history of chattel slavery. Writing a story where the slaves are happy or willing is totally offensive to me.
Then you have people who are mired in incel culture or spend a lot of time in forums where hatred and bigotry are promoted, people who celebrate the show and invade forums to crow about it specifically because it offends people. I don't think we have too many of those people here (we try to keep them out) but they are absolutely a factor in the show's supposed popularity. These are the folks who hear anyone say "this is offensive to me" and cackle over it as though it were a personal victory. They are a significant part of the Shield Hero audience. There's a reason hardcore Vic Mignogna supporters chose this show as their beacon.
For people like me, Shield Hero represents something that is counter to my principles about how you're supposed to treat your fellow human beings. Power fantasies are fine - everyone loves a superhero, but when these fantasies are predicated on the suffering of others and promote deeply misogynist views, personal supremacy over different kinds of people - that's anathema for a lot of folks. And it creates more division and polarization.
IMO - that's why this is such a contentious thing.
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Scalfin
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 249
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:23 pm
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Zac wrote: | I think a big part of what creates shouting matches over Shield Hero is when people basically talk past eachother and never get quite to the real emotional center of this.
One of the big things to consider is that Crunchyroll spent a ton of money and time heavily promoting this show. They promoted it relentlessly in a way they've never done, until Dr. Stone, their next coproduction. Promotion does count for a whole lot - and that 2019 was such a polarized year politically for anime fandom further inflamed things.
A lot of the "Well, I liked it" arguments are predicated on "this is how it actually would be" or somehow find the show's slavery and misogyny pragmatic and realistic in some way, because it's justified somehow by the story - this is commonly referred to as the "Thermian Argument", from the film Galaxy Quest, referencing a species of aliens that took the movie's fictional Star Trek clone to be sacred texts and thought that was actually how the world worked. To someone like me - it's deeply depressing that some people see the world that way and devalue our shared human rights in favor of a personal supremacy narrative. Shield Hero could not be further from the way I see the world - and in my opinion, it's written from a bitter, childish perception that everyone is stupid, wrong and weak except for the Strong White Guy, with absolutely zero respect for women's rights, their autonomy, and the brutal history of chattel slavery. Writing a story where the slaves are happy or willing is totally offensive to me.
Then you have people who are mired in incel culture or spend a lot of time in forums where hatred and bigotry are promoted, people who celebrate the show and invade forums to crow about it specifically because it offends people. I don't think we have too many of those people here (we try to keep them out) but they are absolutely a factor in the show's supposed popularity. These are the folks who hear anyone say "this is offensive to me" and cackle over it as though it were a personal victory. They are a significant part of the Shield Hero audience. There's a reason hardcore Vic Mignogna supporters chose this show as their beacon.
For people like me, Shield Hero represents something that is counter to my principles about how you're supposed to treat your fellow human beings. Power fantasies are fine - everyone loves a superhero, but when these fantasies are predicated on the suffering of others and promote deeply misogynist views, personal supremacy over different kinds of people - that's anathema for a lot of folks. And it creates more division and polarization.
IMO - that's why this is such a contentious thing. |
I think the big thing is that this is in many ways a straw man, as best exemplified by the use of "white" and immediate reference to American slavery, specific references that aren't applicable to the show. People who hate the show took it as a political wedge issue right off the bat because it had the audacity to depict women as capable of political manoeuvring and lying (basically trying to relitigate Rolling Stone, another issue that's specific to American internet political discourse), and thus find excuses to assume that support for the show hate their values. It stopped mattering whether any of the interpretations were actually all that applicable to the show. You might as well say that AoT is the worst show in all of history based on the fascism conspiracy theory.
In many ways, it resembles how people worshipping the Ghostbusters remake were doing so out of a proclaimed support of women were quick to accuse anyone who didn't immediately buy into their messianic predictions for the movie as hating women, and critics of Darling in the Franxx who didn't like the way it presented sex and gender took the ending as a vindication, even though the issues had nothing to do with their criticisms.
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Panino Manino
Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 748
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:04 pm
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I and other already gave specifics. (The anime aired months ago and I didn't enjoy except for the laughs so isn't easy to remember the details properly).
Hiroki not Takuya wrote: | To the extent that Naofumi doesn't order Raphtalia against her wishes thus enforcing the slave crest, the relationship is independent of her "standing" as a slave. There would be no operational difference with or without it and since Naofumi never enforces the crest, treats her as an equal and Raphtalia is free to disagree with him and act independently as she does in fact do, I assert that there is no inherent inequality. |
First, this is a highly questionable relationship, an unhealthy one in this poorly disguised harem. It's not something that the story wants to discuss, just romanticizes.
Second, Naofumi doesn't even need to "enforce' the crest, just by being there her free will is compromised. Raphtalia is physically unable to resist him, if she does no matter what Naofumi wants, she will feel pain. The instances when the crest power was enforced against her when she was "younger" surely must have already contributed to condition her into worshiping him.
If he had any intention of demonstrating that slavery is wrong and he is against that institution, keeping Raphtalia's crest and collecting monster girls is not helping his image.
The logics are all faulty in this story.
To begin with that bad joke that that kingdom is a "matriarchy" just because royal succession there is matrilineal.
Tanteikingdomkey wrote: |
I am not saying shield hero is prefect at all (it really isn't) but it doesn't actually talk about and deal with racism and the effects it has on people as it's central point. the whole reason naofumi gets framed is because he is supposed to be the champion of the demihumans |
And this barely makes a difference in the actual story during the episodes, you can watch and barely notice this, even the slavery, most of the time hidden.
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