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Avatar: The Legend of Korra.


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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:08 am Reply with quote
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No, there are four episodes in the first set of 20 devoted to how spot-on Sokka's instincts are, and how wrong everyone else is, and there are moments in other episodes that take Sokka seriously/show him as a hero.


Sokka just wears too many hats for the sake of the story. I understand he is a growing boy that is developing his instincts but of the course of Avatar the writers turn Sokka's intelligence off and on too frequently.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:59 am Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:
Quote:
No, there are four episodes in the first set of 20 devoted to how spot-on Sokka's instincts are, and how wrong everyone else is, and there are moments in other episodes that take Sokka seriously/show him as a hero.


Sokka just wears too many hats for the sake of the story. I understand he is a growing boy that is developing his instincts but of the course of Avatar the writers turn Sokka's intelligence off and on too frequently.


Where do the writers "turn Sokka's intelligence off"? The only times he acts stupidly is when his pride gets in the way of admitting that someone else might be right. Which happens to smart people often enough in real life.

Re Azula: What makes Azula a terrifying and incredibly interesting villain is how powerful her words are. She is an incredible charmer and manipulator, and can take over an entire City-State just by convincing others to act on her orders. Which she does, when she enacts a bloodless coup in Ba Sing Se. BTW, why is a bloodless coup so much less satisfying (to those who claim that it was unsatisfying to watch) than a warzone takeover scenario?

When someone says "my own mother thought I was a monster," it is never a joke. That line gives me shivers every time I hear it. Azula's situation is the inversion of her brother's, but it is just as sad to me in the end. She felt that she was hated by her mother, and her father did nothing but encourage her sociopathic tendencies for his own benefit. In the end, she was abandoned by both parents, her closest allies betrayed her, and she descended into paranoia. That basic distrust of people led to her demise.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:21 am Reply with quote
Let's see the best I can recall Sokka turning stupid in the library first he offers a nice frayed knot to the Keeper, then he stole a bunch of scrolls(oddly enough he yelled at Katara for stealing before) and outed that their plan was to take out the Fire Nation(I could be remembering wrong) other than that anytime the shopping or drawing came up Sokka turned a wee bit special. Also whenever Sokka is trying to capture meat he spends an awful amount of time chasing livestock and fish around like a stooge instead showing off the wilderness skills you would think he learned living at the South Pole.

Quote:

When someone says "my own mother thought I was a monster," it is never a joke. That line gives me shivers every time I hear it. Azula's situation is the inversion of her brother's, but it is just as sad to me in the end. She felt that she was hated by her mother, and her father did nothing but encourage her sociopathic tendencies for his own benefit. In the end, she was abandoned by both parents, her closest allies betrayed her, and she descended into paranoia. That basic distrust of people led to her demise.


It looked like her father readily supported her and gifted her a country. She didn't descend into madness and paranoia it was just thrust upon her as an excuse to get rid of the Dai Li to make the final fight shorter. Yes, there were trust issues raised with her friends betraying her and she has mother issues. Up until the point of her mental breakdown I thought of her as a really confident and sadistic character that was above personal feelings or at least not the type to go bat shit insane in under a day.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm Reply with quote
Great analysis of Zuko's character Megabyte117.

While certainly the whole villain turns hero story has been done before I think the execution of Zuko's story was quite brilliant. I think in many ways he displayed a troubled teen perfectly. And that to me makes Zuko very different from a character like Vegeta for example. That I could actually somewhat relate the way Zuko acted to real life teenagers just minus the fantasy aspects.

And while I was very frustrated at what he did at the end of season 2 (the only time I was angry at the series) I realize now it only made his redemption all the better. The scene when he is reunited with Iroh is one of most beautiful animated scenes...period. And I also always felt Zuko's relationship with Iroh was very unique. It's not often you see the "villain" get the mentor character.


As for people comparing FMA to Avatar well I do personally think Avatar has more in common with FMA than Naruto. And I think that is more to do with the length of each series. And I love both series.
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Jessica Hart



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:24 pm Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
Re Azula: What makes Azula a terrifying and incredibly interesting villain is how powerful her words are. She is an incredible charmer and manipulator, and can take over an entire City-State just by convincing others to act on her orders. Which she does, when she enacts a bloodless coup in Ba Sing Se. BTW, why is a bloodless coup so much less satisfying (to those who claim that it was unsatisfying to watch) than a warzone takeover scenario?


Well it's a show about war isn't it? Razz The thing is she's such a contrived and poorly written character.. the Dai Li just join her for no reason other than it says so in the script. Very poor writing. I think that was pretty much the only option they had to take over a city without any actual fighting.. can't really show them invading the city, killing soldiers left and right and taking over like a normal show.

Quote:
When someone says "my own mother thought I was a monster," it is never a joke. That line gives me shivers every time I hear it. Azula's situation is the inversion of her brother's, but it is just as sad to me in the end. She felt that she was hated by her mother, and her father did nothing but encourage her sociopathic tendencies for his own benefit. In the end, she was abandoned by both parents, her closest allies betrayed her, and she descended into paranoia. That basic distrust of people led to her demise.


But that was a joke. She follows it up with 'Well, she was right, but still" and they do that silly little comedic sound effect. She admits she's a villain of the show. That whole episode was played for laughs and it was a parody of like 60s surfer movies.. you shouldn't take it seriously given the episode ended with that cheesy laughing freezeframe Razz You might be taking the filler episode a bit too seriously.

And yeah, it's pretty obvious they went out of their way to get everyone out of the palace for the final showdown and used her 'banishing' everyone as an excuse. You can tell it was a last minute addition since it had no build up.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:48 pm Reply with quote
Azula acted like she didn't care what her mother thought of her but it is OBVIOUS she did care. It's important to realize what a characters says and feels can be two very different things.

I didn't find anything comedic about Azula saying her mother viewed her as monster.

And that Beach episode (while not necessarily a favorite of mine) was not meant to be just for laughs. Something can be a parody and have a lot of comedy but still have serious undertones.
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Jessica Hart



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:59 pm Reply with quote
Well the music, sound effects, and general mood of the episode was to not take it seriously. It seemed more like yet another parody they've done before, only rather than make fun of shippers it's maybe sad fanfiction.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:22 pm Reply with quote
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While certainly the whole villain turns hero story has been done before I think the execution of Zuko's story was quite brilliant. I think in many ways he displayed a troubled teen perfectly. And that to me makes Zuko very different from a character like Vegeta for example. That I could actually somewhat relate the way Zuko acted to real life teenagers just minus the fantasy aspects.


Well Vegeta was never troubled over his decisions to pledge allegiance to Frieza, flip flopping said allegiance to pick up where his father left off, and eventually flip flopping again just to get some serious swings in against Goku. He was pretty committed to his way of the warrior. Also Vegeta was never seen as teen in the story of DBZ(barring any flashbacks, movies, or specials). For me Zuko was only relatable in flashbacks with his parents before his banishment after that his problems, emotions, and inner turmoil were far too extreme to be considered relatable.

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It's not often you see the "villain" get the mentor character.

It's not very often that you see a villain have a mentor showing them the light of good.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2633
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:33 pm Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:

Well Vegeta was never troubled over his decisions to pledge allegiance to Frieza, flip flopping said allegiance to pick up where his father left off, and eventually flip flopping again just to get some serious swings in against Goku. He was pretty committed to his way of the warrior. Also Vegeta was never seen as teen in the story of DBZ(barring any flashbacks, movies, or specials). For me Zuko was only relatable in flashbacks with his parents before his banishment after that his problems, emotions, and inner turmoil were far too extreme to be considered relatable.


Don't get me wrong I like Vegeta (DBZ was the first anime I ever became a fan of actually) and my favorite episode is the one when he spoiler[sacrifices himself for his family.]

But I found really nothing about Vegeta's character that I can apply to real life.

On the other hand while I personally can't relate to Zuko (and I can't personally relate to most fictional characters) I do find his situation if you take out the fantasy elements to be true to life.

Get away from being the prince of the Fire Nation and having to capture the Avatar what you have is a very troubled teen. Zuko was abused by his father yet he still wants his fathers love and acceptance so that is why he chases after the Avatar. He believes if he does this one thing he will get his dad's love back (in flashbacks we see that Zuko remembers happy times with his family).

In the meantime Zuko can't see the love that is right in front of him in his Uncle. Zuko is able to talk back at Iroh, make mistakes in front of Iroh, even betray him because in the end Iroh is Zuko's real parent and will still love him even after these mistakes. That is the realization that Zuko needed to come to. That his father's love isn't worth it. He already had someone that was important to him.

And for all Zuko's pride and bravado if you really look at it from another angle he could be a typical teen. Teenagers often think they are smarter than they are. They don't listen to advice, they don't want help, etc. All these attributes are part of Zuko's character. He is also in the end a big dork.

In the end Zuko's story is NOT just about a villain turning good it's about a young man growing up.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:20 pm Reply with quote
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But I found really nothing about Vegeta's character that I can apply to real life.


That's like saying you have nothing against steak but it can't quench your thirst like bottle of gatorade. Vegeta was not created to be related to in the ways you are listing. He was not a troubled teen. He was not confused about his lot in life. He was not seeking the love of his Father nor was he obsessing over his mom. Vegeta is not a character teaching people how to cope with real life problems.

Quote:
On the other hand while I personally can't relate to Zuko (and I can't personally relate to most fictional characters) I do find his situation if you take out the fantasy elements to be true to life.

That's just a matter of substitution, replacement, and imagination. So instead dealing with being banished Zuko, I mean Zachary, is sent to military school. But honestly it sounds pretty arbitrary that you can't use your imagination technique to put Vegeta's situations into more realistic terms so that the way of Vegeta can guide your life.

Quote:
And for all Zuko's pride and bravado if you really look at it from another angle he could be a typical teen.Teenagers often think they are smarter than they are. They don't listen to advice, they don't want help, etc.


That's a common portrayal of teens in cartoons; Ben Tennyson, Robin(Teen Titans), Lion-O, Rapheal(TMNT), any teen from a Marvel comic,...ugh just look at the character description from shows from Nick's shows over the past few years - typical teen- is mentioned at least once in every show.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:33 pm Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:

That's like saying you have nothing against steak but it can't quench your thirst like bottle of gatorade.


Huh? Perhaps you are not reading what I am trying to say!

I LIKE Vegeta as a character. I think he is an intriguing character and I don't think he should be different. But I still think Zuko was a much better written character and his character journey was more fulfilling for me in the end.


Quote:
That's just a matter of substitution, replacement, and imagination. So instead dealing with being banished Zuko, I mean Zachary, is sent to military school. But honestly it sounds pretty arbitrary that you can't use your imagination technique to put Vegeta's situations into more realistic terms so that the way of Vegeta can guide your life.


I am not substituting or imagining anything. That IS how Zuko was written if people pay attention to his story arc. Avatar is ultimately a story about growing up. Not just for Zuko but for all the characters. In my opinion the best fantasy stories are the ones you can relate to real life situations. It should be more than Good VS Evil, which Avatar certainly is at least if you pay attention.

I am also not using Zuko to guide my life. I am an adult and was an adult when I started watching Avatar. But I can look back and see Zuko & the other characters through an adults eyes.

Quote:
That's a common portrayal of teens in cartoons; Ben Tennyson, Robin(Teen Titans), Lion-O, Rapheal(TMNT), any teen from a Marvel comic,...ugh just look at the character description from shows from Nick's shows over the past few years - typical teen- is mentioned at least once in every show.


From what I have seen TMNT, Teen Titans none of these character stories were as compelling or as well developed as Zuko's story.

That is not to say I think Zuko is the only well developed trouble teen character out there. But the fact of the matter is his character is well developed.

And I don't really understand why people harp about things being done before. Who cares! Most things have been done before. It's not what but how.
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IfAnyOneKnew



Joined: 31 Jul 2011
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:06 pm Reply with quote
i'm a diehard avatar the last airbender fan. Legend of Korra actually looks like it will be a great sequel to the original series. I look forward to seeing some cameos of the original cast that mike and bryan have hinted at. I just saw the trailer that was released this past weekend in comi con and it looks amazing
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:21 pm Reply with quote
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But I still think Zuko was a much better written character and his character journey was more fulfilling for me in the end.


And I am saying the two are too different to quantify one character's story as better than the other. If you pay attention and see that Vegeta's story is not about coming of age - most of your praise of Avatar and it's characters boils down to valuing the coming of age aspect.
Quote:

In my opinion the best fantasy stories are the ones you can relate to real life situations.


Every story written by humans can be used to relate to real life situations as all of the character dynamics, relationships, and emotions are based soundly in reality even when mixed with fantastical situations. In terms of being relatable to real life situations I would rather speak in terms of other Western properties instead of tossing in foreign works that have cultural differences as a barrier to immediate relatability.

Quote:

From what I have seen TMNT, Teen Titans none of these character stories were as compelling or as well developed as Zuko's story.


I was pointing out how Zuko's personality is just a combination of the stereotypical teen attitudes and dilemmas. I am not arguing about who did what better, I am just saying Zuko is a derivative character.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:34 pm Reply with quote
You do realize I am comparing Zuko to Vegeta because someone else brought up the comparison first to say the evil character turned good has been done before. I am just saying it might have been done before but I think Avatar has done it better. I also already said Zuko was not the same type of character as Vegeta. So what someone can compare Avatar to DBZ when it is dissenting opinion but when I do it in praise of the series that is not allowed?

Also this is an anime board. We have been discussing how Avatar compares and relates to anime so why do we need to go into Western cartoons. Although I hardly find Zuko's character derivative of anything, including the examples you gave.


edit: Also cultural differences have nothing to do with what I am saying about relating characters to real life situations. There are plenty of anime series that also do this better than DBZ.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:40 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I see you getting defensive over the fact the writers made Zuko very similar to Vegeta and you have to turn that around by arguing who subjectively did it better.

Well you can have turn a blind eye to the fact that Avatar borrows(is that word better for you) a lot from existing franchises. Honestly if you can look at the Fusion Dance and the Dragon Dance and the characters involved and still not see how Avatar or various characters are derivative then there is no reason to reply to me any more because you can't even admit observable facts.
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