Forum - View topicNEWS: Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film
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Craeyst Raygal
 Posts: 1383 Location: In the garage, beneath a 1970 MGB GT. |
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I tow the party line on this issue - GitS is Bandai's series. If they say "It's licensed. It has a US release date. Don't Fansub it." then by god DON'T BLOODY FANSUB Ghost in the Shell!
It still astounds me, actually, that modern fansubbers go after series that are guaranteed stateside releases (like GitS and Naruto and Inu Yasha) and ignore the series that used to be fansub gold. Can anyone reasonably explain to me why the self-proclaimed preservationalists of obscure anime (internet fansubbers) still have me relying on 18th generation VHS copies of Violinist Hamelin? |
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Steventheeunuch
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It's really sad, because with all of the current technology and 'enthusiasm' we have nowerdays, we could be technically in a really great period of anime fandom, where things that aren't licensed and never might be might be available readily in some form of English subtitled media! ...yet I still dont see a properly subtitled LOGH eps 85+ 
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I can understand the argument against a typical average TV show on Japanese TV. But seriously, Bandai is one of the larger companies and GitS is one of their larger titles and really, if you're gonna take the time to tell people you're bringing it over so don't sub it, why not just simultaneously release it. I'm not arguing in favor of fansubbing or against what Bandai is doing in this case, I'm just curious why they don't just add that to production time and (as close as possible) just release in both areas. I mean, at this point, for the major releases, they may as well just do that, especially big companies like Bandai that have the setup in both countries. |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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This comment is very indicative of this new breed of what I call "techno-communism" that I'm seeing more and more in places like Slashdot and the communities around anime. Since pretty much all media can now be broken down into information, and these techno-communists are married to the idea that "information wants to be free" (logic is apparently under lock-and-key if the data on my HD now has a will of its own). These people seem to honestly think that if everything was freely pirate-able and no media cost anything, that it would still all get made somehow. It might work like that for open source software in a few situations, but I have yet to hear how to finance a movie successfully by giving it away. Or even a recording session. As Zac and Steve and many others here have pointed out, their logic is little more than a house of cards defense against stealing. Yet, they think they're waging a holy war. I hope Bandai DOES sue one of these fansubbers, just to send a message. These days, nearly ALL fansubs -- not just the "licensed" ones -- are doing real and very serious damage to the industry. The percentage of anime fans that actually buy DVD's anymore is staggeringly low. There is simply no reason to license anything but the borderline mainstream shows anymore. That's less money for everybody, which means either fewer anime or lower quality anime. Japan is starting to really feel this loss of revenue, and this WILL trickle down to the production level. It might be happening already. The rights holders will have to work out some digital distribution system in the future because -- yes -- the lag time between release in the US and Japan is unacceptable these days, but to do nothing right now and allow the piracy to happen is to give up and commit corporate suicide. The RIAA is one thing -- going after end consumers (and dead grandmothers) while resorting to dirty tricks. The RIAA also had a much tougher problem because anybody could rip a CD and share it. However, fansubs cannot exist without the fansubbers -- meaning only a few people initiate an endless feed of piracy. Out of those few, most WOULD stop if they were asked by the rights holders. So that leaves the neo-fansubbers. There aren't too many of those -- and so if you can stop most of them, that alone would make a big difference. Whew. I'm angry today. |
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hakubi_tron
 Posts: 16 Location: San Diego, CA |
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No, that argument makes perfect sense, and it applies to the entire movie/music/software business. They're going after the easient and most inconsequential target. I don't think their lawsuit would succeed in terms of financial loss. They would need to prove damage to their business to get a sum of money, but would be unable to say how many people who downloaded the file also purchased the DVD (it will have extras and a dub, which will provide more value than the lower quality fansubbed version anyway). Remember, just because someone downloaded it, doesn't mean they didn't buy it. Meanwhile, they're allowing other methods (like eBay bootlegs) to continue unchecked. Which they sould easily stop. If it damages their business, they could surely afford to dedicate somebody to check ebay and have infringing bootlegs removed. Basically, they could win based on copyright infringement, but meanwhile they really haven't put that much effort into stopping the flow of bootlegged materials (the relatively easy process of banning eBay sellers, etc.). So long as the defense has a decent lawyer, proving financial losses due to fansubbing would be impossible. It's like having an organized ring of theives steal from your store every day, but all you ever do is watch for gradeschoolers who steal gum. It's a problem, yes, but your resources would be better placed elsewhere. |
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Pleroma
 Posts: 443 Location: Eromanga island |
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Just a figure of speech. I am not saying to do away with copyright as a concept, but the current laws are in my opinion flawed and do not account for the inevitable dynamic that modern means of communication add to the whole thing.
True, but if we consider all the leechers this is still thousands of lawsuits that are beyond their financial capabilities. Personally I like Malintex Terek's angle for this one. Mostly on the hype side, but also that it may be quite underwhelming desipe being stupidly expensive. Guess we will just have to wait and see but I am gessing a lot of people will gladly call on Bandai's bluff.
The ultimate idea is of advertisement embedded in content as the source of profit. Not sure I quite agree with this, but I definitely can see how content being mostly made for profit through distribuition might go the way of the dodo.
You are gonnahave to back that one up with some numbers. Fansubs maintain fandom interest at a profitable level. Cut off the source and say hello to whole lot less growth and consumer awareness. More and more anime is produced each season and the shelves over at Best Buy seem beefier every time I go there so I have no idea what world you live in to make such a statement. Last edited by Pleroma on Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2295 Location: Online Terminal |
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Because the obscure titles don't necessarily get you hits, forum members, donations, etc. Long story short, people go with what sells. However, there's still good stuff out there. Akazukin ChaCha, Yakitate!! Japan, Kanon. You just have to look. |
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Strategos
 Posts: 91 Location: Ohio |
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Yea right, because Bandai is going to track every torrent, direct download, file sharing program AND irc bot, and then proceed to SUE THEM ALL. ROFL. RIAA sued individuals who downloaded like a bajillion files. Going after an individual for ONE movie is absurd to a point far beyond hilarious. Companies are going to concentrate on the people that provide the fansubs (the subbers and the sites that allow them to be downloaded), not the actual people whom download the files. |
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hakubi_tron
Posts: 16 Location: San Diego, CA |
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O HO!. Devil's advocate time  . I'd like a link to something saying that ADV or any of the other "majors" is going out of business/losing profits/anything else at the moment. No, 4Kids profit margin doesn't count because they only license children's shows, and don't include japanese audio on most releases anyway. (Which is a shame because I would consider checking out Sonic X)
Also, Animeigo just licensed Yawara!, and that's not exactly mainstream. But then again, neither is Animeigo. 
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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Cliff Notes version: Well that was Media Factory. Title under contention was School Rumble. Fansub group consulted with their lawyers and continued fansubbing. Series 1 completely fansubbed. OVA completely fansubbed. Series 2 currently up to ep. 19. Now R1 licensed by FUNimation. It's on satellite TV. No wonder they are on the defensive. They should have put it on the Bandai Channel and streamed it imo. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Oh look, another Pleroma thread and his effort to explain to the world why he should be allowed to legalize slavery and take the hard work of others simpy because he wants it and he can. For all your usual longwindedness you once again demonstrate yourself as little more than an elitist and self-centered fool with a superiority complex. Just not enough of one to get over the idea that you think you can actually justify theft of other peoples properties.
The laws are not flawed, the only way to account for the dynamic of theft is to expect it or to just hand it over. Neither is a viable option, however the infrastructure of the modified internet will not make theft quite so easy, unfortunately it will stifle its growth but once again people who think they are above the rights of others make it necessary in order to protect the rights of everyone. Especially artists who stand to lose the most from theft because their innovation and ideas and skill are the easiest to steal. I'm afraid the laws aren't flawed, your mindset is flawed, you're essentially demanding peoples work for free and blaming a law for giving them rights to ask for payment for their hard work. We might as well kick out other rights and even labor laws that require your employer pay you while you're at it, because if an artists work isn't worth anything then why should yours be? Content requires profit because content costs money to produce. Materials and labor aren't free and if content for profit goes the way of the dodo then content itself goes the way of the dodo because innovators and artists aren't going to spend so much effort to gain nothing. It's funny how fansub enthusiasts always say fansubs drive the industry, yet there's nothing really to back that up just like all the claims they see as hot air from the other side. It's all just conjecture and all the arguments based on it are pointless and void. While fansubs might contribute they also have the potential to choke it, and just as you say taking it away will destroy consumer awareness it's also very probably that fansubs themselves will choke the industry in the same way. You can't argue one side and ignore the nearly identical effects of the other. Either recognize the full equation or don't bother putting it to paper, otherwise you just waste our time with a lot of hot air and a bunch of repetitive drivel. Based on how much you see about fansubs all over the net on various sites its easy to assume the effects are likely already present, and it's impossible to truly say whether fansubs have already choked this industry to a degree, who knows where we could stand without them. It's all conjecture as well of course, but it's easy to look at the facts and recognize the possibilities either for or against either side. Either way, anime does not make itself and it costs these companies money, money they require in return for the service to keep themselves going. No matter how holier than thou you think you are, in the end if you just steal it you're little more than a bottom feeding vulture who essentially spits in the face of the very artists who's talents you require. |
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WickedJester
Posts: 3 |
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I have read many answers towards this question and frankly I have just a couple of things to say... I do check fansubs, BUT I've been paying for DVDs for the last year, I actually have over 30 dvds up to now, I had to give some away because I chose NOT to keep DVDs that turned out not to be legal US releases... so hopefully they will release it soon, I am to buy the 2 seasons of SACs next month and hopefully I'll finish looking at them by the time the MOVIE is released because I cannot stay up so late to watch them all on Cartoon Network AND I LOVE THE MUSIC
I just can't find it anywhere.... damn.... well hopefully they will release them soon over here... Peace/Ciao |
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I should have guessed I'd get some inquiries from such a statement. There is no publically available information I can point to, so I guess I'm going to have to pull the "inside information" card. I really hate doing that. But I do talk to many people at most of the companies (on both sides of the Pacific), and their trust is important to me. Things have calmed down a lot now, but there were a few months where things were truly, truly scary -- particularly after the Musicland bankruptcy. It really looked like the end there for a number of companies. I am very happy to say that most of them have at least stablized now. But I will let the tiny number of licenses that were announced this con season speak for itself. I've also seen sales figures. For some shows, the number of bittorrent downloads absolutely dwarfs the number of units sold. If that's not a clear indication, I don't know what one is. But if that's not enough, go to your nearest anime con, and do an informal survey, particularly of the teenagers that seem to be everywhere. I will eat my mouse if more than 30% of them even remember the last time they bought an anime DVD. The people that hang out here and on AnimeOnDVD are the industry-savvy fans. Those who know the industry side of things tend to like to support it. They are not the norm, sadly. I'm not saying that fansubs are exclusively to blame for all of the industry's woes. Clearly, alternative means of distribution need to be explored. The industry in general also made a lot of mistakes that affected this as well. But they certainly are part of the problem. Last edited by jsevakis on Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tonyadpx
Posts: 6 |
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I think every major anime distributor in the US should do the same thing. Best thing I've heard in a long time.
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sorvani
Posts: 73 |
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Technologically, there is no reason that the Bandai US (or whatever they are now) translator does not have a copy of the final episode scripts at the same time as they are distributed to the Japanese team. The same applies to the video and audio. The US voice actors can work with the same material the Japanese voice actors work with and even on basically the same schedule, because when you account for the timezone, the Japanese work will be wrapped for the day and sitting there until the next morning when the US team is just waking up. Logistically, the only real delay in the process is translation and QC of translation. and truely if this is known going into project planning, the delays could be easily mitigated or otherwise accounted for in the scheduling process. Simultanueous worldwide distribution is extremely simple since nothing even has to be shipped. DVD cases and boxes are all made before the DVD's are ready anyway with on demand delivery of the cases to the DVD replicator. The media is sent to the replicator digitally and then the final product is shipped direct tot he wholesalers from there. It is even easier to distribute electronically once the companies finally embrace a distro method (aka iTunes with better quality). so to sum up, no, there really is no technological or logistical reason why an anime can't be simultaneously released in multiple regions. Lisencing will play an issue for most titles, but the select few that are known from the word "go" that they are going to be to see release in other languages, CAN be done if the companies wanted. The only other big thing that will play an issue is the fact that a title will be played on the air in Japan and will only see a DVD release in the US. Again the select few that are going to be "big enough" in the first place are going to be on the air in the US too. |
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