Forum - View topicAvatar: The Legend of Korra.
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bleachj0j
 Posts: 925 |
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So your main point is that Avatar isn't anime so it wasn't as good right? You realize this is a nicktoon right. You not going to see Brotherhood type fights with arms cut off. I find it funny you say it's an anime wannabe but for what reasons. You obviously don't know anything about asian culture if you think it's sterotypical. Also how do they sugar coat it? I remember in the final episode Zuko was struck by lighting. Im the season 2 finale Aaang has open wound on his back. So I don't understand what you mean. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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@bleachj0j
That's sort of the point of the censorship complaint. It's a real limitation, especially on a show that wants to deal with something like war. (Though in it's defense, you do see arms get blown off on Dragonball Z Kai and Iron Man: Armored Adventures which is on Nicktoons Network. Not really the same as normal Nickelodeon, but still, maybe if Avatar was on Nicktoons Network we'd get more lenient censors) By stereotypical Asian culture I mean where everything must revolve around kung-fu and other stereotypical things we've seen in these shows before. Shows like Xiaolin Showdown, Samurai Jack, Three Delivery, American Dragon: Jake Long, and The Life and Times of Juniper Lee, and so forth. All of the shows trying to cash in on anime's popularity made it a habit to revolve around Asian culture in some way (usually Chinese culture, despite the fact anime is Japanese, which is odd). They seem to think people enjoy anime because it's Asian, rather than the writing or substance How often do we see one of these cash in shows based on sci-fi, modern times, or really anything besides Asian culture? As for Aang and Zuko being hit by lighting. Well, I think it says a lot when that's about the most the show's done. Electricity has been established as one of the more kid friendly attacks in cartoons the censors will allow. I mean, Aang and Zuko were better by the next episode (Zuko didn't even show any damage at all) I just find it really limiting when an action show can't even have people hit each other. Not to mention it led to the biggest cop-out in recent memory for me (Lion Turtle) |
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bleachj0j
Posts: 925 |
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What about when Azula hit Iroh with fire. Right in the chest. Or look at the whole fight in "Crossroads of Destiny" ANd how is it copying anime? Just because it looks like it.The animation was done in Korea. The creators wern't trying to cash in on anything. You seem to think because it based on Asian culture it's trying to cash in on anime. So is the boondocks copying anime because it looks like anime and has a few fight scenes with martial arts? |
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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As an Asian person, I have no problems with the current trend of how Asians are generally depicted in animation in the US. Honestly I'm happier they do that. Alot of them are very positive roles. Also more convincing rather then a randomly inserted race when the subject matter or story line suggest a specific culture. Like if Samurai Jack was a Caucasian or African American samurai? That would seem more off and saddening that they made that kind of TV political decision. Granted you could shape the story away to explain why those people happen to come across the Asian culture, but again, it still seems like some kind of behind the scene political reason for it. Plus it's not like they are making fun of the characters because they are Asian. If they did that THEN I be offended.
Also I wouldn't consider any of those series to be amongst those that are trying to cash in on Anime. Outside of the fact they include Asian culture, their styles aren't very anime-like at all. Also what about FMA and other series that don't have references of Asian culture? With your reasoning that makes them not anime and/or rip offs of non-Asian cartoons. Outside of Martial Arts, the gis, and black hair; DBZ is a bit removed from Asian culture too. Heck, look at Soul Eater! Honestly in the US, I would actually point at series like Totally Spies and Code Llyoko as the imitators. Teen Titans for the first season or so was a bit guilty too until it found it's own pace and overall style. Also don't forget Doremon and Anpanman is anime too. So lets make sure to keep things in perspective when thinking along the lines of "rather than the writing or substance" in terms of anime. One of the reason shows like DBZ and ironman call also get away with their level of action and violence is cause they present themselves at that superhuman/superhero level where normal damage isn't much to them. PLUS Piccolo can freaking grow his arm back and looks like an alien. Aliens and superhuman types are okay when you want to hurt them. Avatar on the other hand still lent itself towards very real people so they couldn't pound on each other like more action type shows could. Honestly I felt Avatar did a really good job in balancing its anime influences (influences, not rip offs) and keeping that American style approach or presentation of animation and storytelling. Like the Powerpuff Girls, Samurai Jack, and the studio behind Transformers and Ben 10 before it. Really Avatar showed a nice evolution in how US cartoons can present themselves while still working in the confines of US censorship and keeping a series family friendly. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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@bleachj0j
Michael Dante DiMartino, Bryan Konietzko, and Aaron McGruder don't hide their love of anime; just read any interview with them and they'll mention it (McGruder even going to the point of proclaiming the superiority of it; he was very meticulous about getting Madhouse to animate his show specifically). Their shows (and comic) were specifically tailored to be that way. Back in the early 2000s when executives started noticing anime, they tried to cash in on it by making tons of shows. If you read some interviews, you'll see some of them mention 'due to anime's popularity' or 'as a response to anime' (that was ExoSquad's tagline back in the day). It's just the nature of our market; we see something popular so we create dozens of variations of it to cash in. It doesn't make it neccessarily bad, but we should be upfront on our intentions. As for Iroh, yes, more stuff like that would have been nice. @TatsuGero23 That's perfectly fine and understandable. May I assume you're an Asian-American? One thing I always found interesting was the response to Avatar in countries like Korea, Kazakhstan and Japan... they didn't really like it for the most part from the people I talked to. Some people I talked to complained about 'American Asian' stereotypes they felt the show had; saying the characters were essentially whites/Americans in 'Asian bodies' (citing Sokka and Katara's quabble on sexism early on in the show was pretty 'American of them', or how Katara backtalked, disrespected, and even attempted to harm Pakku, her respected elder, which would be seen as treasonous in some of their cultures and if it was a mistake or not) As for the other shows, it's true they don't adopt the stereotypical anime style, but I'd say that's just the fact most American cartoons don't have very good art to begin with. Either it costs too much or they're just lazy; so while the art may not look it, I think the culture itself speaks for the show. African-Americans and Hispanics each have about three times the population in the United States than Asians do, yet they have just about no cartoons on TV based on their cultures (I can only think of The Boondocks and The Cleveland Show; I suppose there's Dora the Explorer, but I have no idea if that show is still airing or not) Stuff like that tells me their not important enough because something like anime didn't come from their native countries and wasn't a boom to cash in on, and I think they're more concerned with making money and aping something popular than paying tribute to a culture (notice all the Asian-based shows debuted after the anime boom here, and not during the mid 90s. Whether they're directly trying to copy anime or not, they're definitely cashing in on the popularity of the culture. Or perhaps they just said 'close enough to anime' for those shows and churned them out for a quick buck) The thing with Anpanman and Doraemon is no one cares about them in America; they're not part of the Toonami anime squad that crated the boom here in America) Likewise, FMA and Soul Eater weren't really made to ape on 'American cartoons' so much as they're set in more Western culture just because that's where the author's story takes place. I don't get that sense from Avatar, it definitely feels like they just threw a bunch of Asian cultures together because that's the hot thing right now. (One friend pointed out why the Japanese-based Fire Nation were using Chinese calligraphy, and wondered if it was just America mixing up the two cultures again) Overall, I wouldn't say Avatar was a bad show, like I said, most shows don't even bother to try anymore. It just felt very unprofessional. They left a lot of plot and character threads dangling, let censorship obtrude in on the story and execution, glossed over and simplified a lot of issues and plot points, and even dedicated episodes to making fun of the fans and the shippers; episodes which could have been used to wrap up and resolve the show. I really can't forgive them for having so many filler episodes in the last season and then have the audacity to say they didn't have enough time to wrap everything up. I can think of other shows who handled their influence better than Avatar did in my eyes, which felt like it was trying to hard at times. |
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TatsuGero23
Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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WOW. Now you really gotta stop talking. As well as your "friends". So the fact I was born in America equates me to being an "White/American in a Asian body"? Because we American Asian can relate more to and act like these "whites/Americans in Asian bodies"? WOW, I am beyond offended and honestly felt an anger that is quite beyond "internet argument level" if real people actually say things like that. That's pretty much them insinuating we America born Asians aren't "true" Asian for being Americize. How [expletive] rediculous is that?! Are you even listening to yourself? I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it and didn't think it completely through but WOW. Respect is still a big part in most Asian American cultures but so is the more "open-ness" and "personal strength to stand up for things we believe in" that we inherited by living in America. That's a mixing of culture. It does NOT make us any less Asian then them and your ****ing Asians should **** off if they really think like that. And if you feel they have a more valid argument just because they were born in Asia; the reasoning behind that and your friends' opinions is... rediculously ignorant. Fine, they maybe culturally offended, but its not some made up culture or personality made by putting "white people or an American into a Asian Body". It's a my culture; something just as real as their own culture. Kinda disrepectful of your friends when you think about it. Maybe they should get more in touch with their culture. |
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bleachj0j
Posts: 925 |
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You seem to think because it's in the stlye they're trying to cash off anime. What was there to cash in? By the time Avatar came out the bubble already burst in America. It was simple two guys who like Asian animation and got an Korean studio to do it.
Also what was wrong with Katara being strong minded? She was probably the only girl to even tried to change women being taught. |
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IncompetentOverlord
 Posts: 139 |
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Ugh. The reason people like Avatar is NOT because it is incredibly original. It's because the fights, characters, and plot are all done incredibly well. It's the reason that The Last Airbender movie sucked. Avatar doesn't work when you take it away from the team that made it. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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@TatsuGero23
They're referring to the characters on the show, not to actual people, when they refer to 'Whites in Asian bodies'. They're referring to the stereotype that Hollywood and the American media in general superimposes on their culture. "Hollywood Asian" might have been a better term to use on my part, so I apologize. @bleachj0j A lot of companies cite the years 2003 to 2006 as being anime's peak years, which is exactly when Avatar premiered (The beginning of 2005 to be exact) and when you take into consideration the production time, production probably started in 2003, which is right around the time Nick wanted to get into the anime business with shows like Speed Racer X for their ill-fated Slam block (which was an attempt to capitalize on Toonami's success) so Nick was definitely paying attention. |
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TatsuGero23
Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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TitanXL: Honestly it wouldn't have matter if you used a different term or not. Since what bothered me was the idea that the characters were some kind of glorified/hollywood, falsely localized, fictional or unrealistic portrayal of someone of Asian decent or the result of mixing Asian and American culture. Which isn't a universal consent despite the opinions of your Asian friends nor true. And not just limited to Avatar but those other shows you mentioned as well nor cases of "oh that's just the exception to the rule" kind of sense. Twenty years age? Yeah, there was more merit to that but now a days?
You can defend your friends for whatever reason, but I have an idea that wasn't as much as a "misuse" of the word as you make it out to be from your friends. At the least, its a sentiment they carry if they even allow such a term to escape their mouths. So I stand by my earlier remakes cause those are my sentiments that I carry for them and people of like mind. Little kids look up to those characters your friends have apprehensions of, and Asian kids find a source of relation to them. They serve as positive role models to kids in general, and are a fairly accurate amalgam of balancing Asian and American culture when a family so chooses to hold onto their roots. Outside of the more fictional parts of the story obviously. And serve as a sense of pride for Asian kids because in a sense they feel it portrays them in a positive light. |
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zhir
 Posts: 353 Location: Nampa, ID, USA |
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@TitanXL I find it interesting that the two characters you mention people complaining about are two of the few characters that aren't actually supposed to be Asian. Sokka and Katara are Inuit, not Asian (Some Inuit tribes could be considered Eurasian).
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Andrea Romano, the Voice Acting Director of A:TLA and The Legend of Korra, states that all the original characters will be dead! at the start of the new series:
Source: http://www.lastairbenderfans.com/index.php?subaction=showcomments&id=1280774724&archive=&start_from=&ucat=4& (Sorry for the messy URL, it's hard to modify things on my phone) Personal opinion: NO! I hope this info is wrong or messed up somehow! I want old fogey Sokka, dang it! 
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shamisen the great
 Posts: 658 Location: Oregon, USA |
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I'm sure we'll see at least Aang in spirit form, and hopefully they will show some of the other characters in flashbacks. I kind of expected most of the older characters to be mostly absent in the series. I will be very dissapointed if there is no mention of their fates though. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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I'd be dissapointed if this turns out to be completely true. I expected Aang to be dead, of course, but the rest of 'em would only be in their mid-eighties or so, and Avatar world characters tend to live for a really long time (Bumi-112 and going strong, Guru Pathik-about 150, Kyoshi was over 200 when she died, etc).
As for the argument that Avatar is only around to cash in on the anime boom: 1. Asian-inspired entertainment has been popular in America since way before the anime boom hit, especially among the geek set. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, anyone? 2. Avatar is meticulously researched, and includes an amalgation of cultures, icluding American, Inuit/Native American, ancient Aztec, as well as Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese and other East Asian cultures. The characters regularly espouse philosophies based on Budhism and Taoism, as well as "American" ideals. The locations depicted are based on various real-world places as well (a lot of the Fire Nation geograhy was based on Iceland).I think the mix of cultures and ideas adds to the fantasy world element. It would be too easy to say "The Fire Nation is industrialized and militaristic, therefore it's based on Japan." Or "the Earth Kingdom is China." They both have a mix of inspirations as well as unique fantasy qualities in their overall design. (I suppose you can say the same of FMA. Amestris is not Germany or England, but it is inspired by a combination of different Western cultures and contains its own unique fantasy qualities [namely Alchemy] as well.) 3. Another common fantasy/sci fi trope: everyone speaks and reads the same language. Sometimes there's a weak explanation for the lack of language barrier (Babel Fish! Insta-translators that for some reason let Klingon curses through! Etc!) But usually there isn't. Props to the Avatar creators for actually including accurate ancient Chinese calligraphy (which no one reads anymore. Modern Chinese is different). Also small point; modern written Japanese was based on ancient Chinese... 4. On Katara and disrespect: do these same friends have a problem with the way elders are potrayed in typical shonen manga? Rumiko Takahashi offends me with her awful potrayal of just about every elderly character she comes up with: Genma Saotome, Happosai, that flea in Inuyasha--all pervy morons that the main characters argue and fight with constantly. Other shonen manga have similarly flawed elders ("pervy sage" ring a bell?) that the young protagonists disrespect. But I suppose it's okay as long as the young, hot-headed disrespectful protagonist is male, huh? 5. A:TLA is rated Y-7 and is limited by its rating, but it still depicts the emotional impact of war, as well as the on-screen death of multiple characters spoiler[Yue, Admiral Zhao, Jet, Combustion Man]. When Aang was hit by lightning in the Avatar state, he was in a coma for a few weeks and wasn't completely healed when he woke up. When Zuko accidentally burned Toph's feet, she was unable to function normally for 2 episodes while her feet healed. One of the most powerful images in Avatar was when the gang was trying to help Jet remember who he was, and we see his PTSD-infused flashback of him as a kid watching his village burn down. His distress and pain were palpable. When you think about it, it's never the "main characters" of war who die. World leaders and great generals usually survive the conflicts they inflict. It's the little guys-the nameless soldiers and refugees, who suffer the most. Avatar depicts this quite well by showing the impact war has on various people--from innocent Fire civillians unfairly targeted by terrorists guerillas (as in the Jet episode in Season 1) to families on both sides of the conflict who lost loved ones to the war. Its violence may not be bloody, but its emotions are raw. |
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Amibite
Posts: 196 |
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I tried to get into Avatar, but it just came off like a poor-man's shounen anime. Just about everything I saw in it I could name a similar thing I've seen in Naruto, Bleach, Dragonball, or any other shounen out there, and it was done better in those. Not to mention most of the characters and dialog were really annoying and never really shook the 'Nickelodeon' feeling.
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