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So we get rainbows. What's next, butterflies?

Actually, very mild spoilers I guess, but for those who dont' know: the reason there's "rainbows" in Rebuild is that now, when Angels die they explode into a hail of blood (apparently when your AT Field stops when you die, that's what happens; they just fall apart)...

...so they explode into blood. And this creates a rain of blood; they actually play sound effects that sound like gently falling rain recorded in a forest;

so there's a rainbow because its LITERALLY a "blood-rainbow"; light reflecting off of all of the spray off blood makes a rainbow. It's so over-the-top that its kind of hilarious, but kind of symbolic to (God with the rainbow after Noah's arc, etc.)

I see someone's masculinity is threatened by rainbows. Rolling Eyes

Blood rainbows sound cool but it seems like it's just more "Look at the pretty shiny new thing" without adding any real new depth. Of course this is from someone who really only cares about the character development, the robots are just the cherry on top.

People who talk about "symbolism" in Evangelion, with crosses and Kabbalah (the tree of life, actually, not the world tree) - the creators of the show have several times admitted they put much of that there just to look cool. To be a symbol, it has to actively point to something. In other words, what do the rainbows signify? Hope? Or is it intended ironically, that the symbols of hope have becomes ones of despair?

If you call it a symbol, be prepared to say what it means. I get irked whenever people defending a series call a repeated motif a symbol and leave it at that. Crosses are symbols in Evangelion? Symbols of what? Why choose crosses over regular explosions? If it's meant to signify something religious, why crosses instead of mandalas?

Now, it's perfectly fine to have repeated motifs that aren't symbolic for the sake of being cool. The rainbows may very much be in the "cool" category, but whether or not they actually mean something is another question altogether. I reserve judgment until I've seen the second film (as I said, waiting to watch the first two together).

kazume wrote:

Quote:

im going to eva on the 17th in tempe

Wait a sec, I'm in Phx. AZ too, where exactly in Tempe are they showing it? can't believe i missed news like this when hardly anything anime related comes anywhere near Phoenix O_o...

its on mill ave. heres the website -> http://www.harkinstheatres.com/movieDetails.aspx?movieId=67947

see u there man Smile

MetatronM wrote:

samuelp wrote:

The rainbows are not gratuitous. That becomes clear in the second movie. It's a new, and crucial, motif.

Does this mean I can run around like a moron yelling about how Eva is ripping off Eureka seveN?

Oooh the irony. The juicy, delicious irony.

Anyways, I'm actually surprised, and glad to see so many people defending Shinji here. It's a very nice departure from the usual maelstrom of complaints about him you have to sift through in any other Eva discussion - in general, I'm tempted to think that the fans whine about Shinji more than he actually ever whines in the series, which, admittedly, is an accomplishment. But, like it's been said, I doubt many of us would do a better job than him if put in his shoes. I very much like that he's not your typical protagonist, personally, and I think that's part of what makes the series. Sure, sometimes you want to smack him, but the other characters usually do that for you anyways, so it's all good Anime hyper

It really does seem like the 1st 2 movies should be reviewed in conjunction with one another, though. My biggest problem with this movie were the changes towards the end - spoiler[Hey, let's just take the elevator down to central dogma! Oh, hello there, giant, white plot-point-not-being-used-to-its-full-potential! We need some quick, last minute motivation here, care to help us out?] I mean, I knew they were going to change the plot around, but after a movie that was pretty much just taken straight from the series, throwing that in at the end was a bit more than I expected, or was willing to take. It seems like they introduced a lot of new elements in the 2nd movie, though, so if they're worthwhile enough, I suppose I can forgive their transgression at the end of the 1st movie, if only because I'm horribly addicted to Eva, heh. The scene at the very end with spoiler[Kaworu on the moon] has been enough to keep me interested this long, at least.

vashfanatic wrote:

People who talk about "symbolism" in Evangelion, with crosses and Kabbalah (the tree of life, actually, not the world tree) - the creators of the show have several times admitted they put much of that there just to look cool. To be a symbol, it has to actively point to something. In other words, what do the rainbows signify? Hope? Or is it intended ironically, that the symbols of hope have becomes ones of despair?

Read this post by Aaron White:

Aaron White wrote:

Well, if you want to claim Eva isn't blatantly influenced by Jung, feel free, but it's a bit like asserting that the Wachoski Bros. didn't draw upon Philip Dick for Matrix, and that Citizen Kane isn't a roman a clef of William Randolph Hearst's life. I didn't need Carl Gustav Horn to tell me that Jung was an influence on Anno: from the use of Jung's pet symbols to the use of Jung's psychological theories, the show's so Jungian it's almost a textbook.

But I'm certainly not asserting that the symbols are part of some allegorical code that contain the answers to all questions about the show... that's as silly as the opposite extreme of saying the symbols mean nothing (and heaven knows people at cons tend to say silly things. And in my own experience of putting theatrical productions together, second bananas often make assertions about production design that are comically inaccurate. Just keep those light cues straight, Mr. Assistant Director...)

The symbols work as motifs when taken pretty much at face value. Consider the Kaballah (which was a key subject for Jung.) The Tree of Life is a representation of a rigourous schematic for understanding and reshaping the world; a representation that hinges on the idea that something's broken in the world and must be fixed. Raise your hand if you think this was associated with Dr. Ikari purely because it looks cool. Now raise your other hand. Now clap! Wasn't that fun?

Or consider those cross-shaped explosions. If you're japanese there's a perceptible connection between Christianity and horrible explosions in japanese urban centers. These religious motifs aren't part of a rigourous Pilgrim's Progress-style allegory, but obviously they aren't in the show by happenstance.

vashfanatic wrote:

If it's meant to signify something religious, why crosses instead of mandalas?

It's called a displaced metaphor: taking something out of its context and reassociating it with other meaning. In Evangelion, the Judeo-Christian images and references lend themselves to two meaings -- one in the story itself (having obvious meanings to the characters), the other having meaning relative to the viewer (as in a societal context, which would sooner have relevancy to a Japanese viewer familiar with the background and viewpoints that Anno comes at).

yellow ledbetter wrote:

Maybe I should point out the exact moment this review fell apart for me.

"Those who hated the original Evangelion for its highly dysfunctional characters still won't find anything to like in this version."

Maybe if he inserted a (like me) after Evangelion in that sentence I would find the rest of the review more believable.

What? The sentence says exactly what it needs to say: the characters remain essentially the same from the series to the remake. Constantly adding disclaimers that only people who share the reviewer's opinions will share the reviewer's opinions is pointless and redundant.

HellKorn wrote:

vashfanatic wrote:

People who talk about "symbolism" in Evangelion, with crosses and Kabbalah (the tree of life, actually, not the world tree) - the creators of the show have several times admitted they put much of that there just to look cool. To be a symbol, it has to actively point to something. In other words, what do the rainbows signify? Hope? Or is it intended ironically, that the symbols of hope have becomes ones of despair?

Read this post by Aaron White:

Aaron White wrote:

Well, if you want to claim Eva isn't blatantly influenced by Jung, feel free, but it's a bit like asserting that the Wachoski Bros. didn't draw upon Philip Dick for Matrix, and that Citizen Kane isn't a roman a clef of William Randolph Hearst's life. I didn't need Carl Gustav Horn to tell me that Jung was an influence on Anno: from the use of Jung's pet symbols to the use of Jung's psychological theories, the show's so Jungian it's almost a textbook.

But I'm certainly not asserting that the symbols are part of some allegorical code that contain the answers to all questions about the show... that's as silly as the opposite extreme of saying the symbols mean nothing (and heaven knows people at cons tend to say silly things. And in my own experience of putting theatrical productions together, second bananas often make assertions about production design that are comically inaccurate. Just keep those light cues straight, Mr. Assistant Director...)

The symbols work as motifs when taken pretty much at face value. Consider the Kaballah (which was a key subject for Jung.) The Tree of Life is a representation of a rigourous schematic for understanding and reshaping the world; a representation that hinges on the idea that something's broken in the world and must be fixed. Raise your hand if you think this was associated with Dr. Ikari purely because it looks cool. Now raise your other hand. Now clap! Wasn't that fun?

Or consider those cross-shaped explosions. If you're japanese there's a perceptible connection between Christianity and horrible explosions in japanese urban centers. These religious motifs aren't part of a rigourous Pilgrim's Progress-style allegory, but obviously they aren't in the show by happenstance.

vashfanatic wrote:

If it's meant to signify something religious, why crosses instead of mandalas?

It's called a displaced metaphor: taking something out of its context and reassociating it with other meaning. In Evangelion, the Judeo-Christian images and references lend themselves to two meaings -- one in the story itself (having obvious meanings to the characters), the other having meaning relative to the viewer (as in a societal context, which would sooner have relevancy to a Japanese viewer familiar with the background and viewpoints that Anno comes at).

Ho boy, where do I begin...

Like I said, the staff has said that most of this is not heavily symbolic, that they settled on many of them because they looked neat. At best, the connections between Evangelion and Kabbalah are tenuous and superficial. The human quest for knowledge of God? Sure, but they only picked the Kabbalah tree because it was neat and exotic. A Shingon mandala would've expressed the same thing and been as equally vague. And this doesn't even begin to cover the Lance of Longinus and all the other elements that they clearly chose just because it all sounded cool.

And the idea that you can read Jung into this series? Evanglion is Freudian, all the way. Nobody is encountering their male/female doubles and grasping with their shadows while trying to find individuation and union with a universal subconscious; it's all about getting over your issues with your parents and your childhood trauma. Now RahXephon, that series just reeks of Jung.

And lastly: it has two meanings, you say? And what are those meanings?!?! This is my point: it doesn't matter that in other circumstances crosses have significant meaning, unless you can tell me what crosses are supposed to mean in Evangelion itself, they are a motif, not a symbol.

I'm not saying Evangelion doesn't have merit or depths or anything, just that people read way too much into the various mythological flourishes that are mostly there as window dressing for an existentialist psychological piece.

Quark: for the fact that opinion and review are two different words i don't even need to answer you. Also i really like the reviewer giving their opinion as long as he keeps it separated, in other words not mixed like this one. I never intended to offend anyone with my comment but just to give my opinion after all that's what these comments are open for.

Quote:

“There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. Because Christianity is an uncommon religion in Japan we thought it would be mysterious. None of the staff who worked on Eva are Christians. There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool. If we had known the show would get distributed in the US and Europe we might have rethought that choice.”

--Gainax's Kazuya Tsurumaki at Otakon 2001

vashfanatic and _V_: So as to not side-track any remaining discussion here, please refer to this discussion thread. (Though I would have appreciated it if _V_ had actually read and understood my point on the displaced metaphor.)

Quote:

It's called a displaced metaphor: taking something out of its context and reassociating it with other meaning. In Evangelion, the Judeo-Christian images and references lend themselves to two meaings -- one in the story itself (having obvious meanings to the characters), the other having meaning relative to the viewer (as in a societal context, which would sooner have relevancy to a Japanese viewer familiar with the background and viewpoints that Anno comes at).

In which case....what WOULD the "new" metaphor of the crosses mean?

Yes, I understand the "displaced metaphor" thing but it's simply not really applicable here:

For example, a red balloon has no inherent meaning.

But in "the Big O" members of the rebel faction "the Union" secretly identify themselves by carrying red balloons. So its a symbol for the audience, that even if someone doesn't directly state "I work for the Union rebels", if they're holding a red balloon, its an obvious visual clue that they really are.

In contrast, the cross explosions don't take on a "new meaning" in Eva; they don't symbolize peace or love or sacrifice or anything.

There IS no metaphorical meaning within EVa itself to the crosses, even not related to Christianity: they flat out said "we think crosses look cool so when Evas and Angels die, they explode in cross-shaped explosions because it looks cool.

If you are so insistent that there is a "displaced metaphor" in Eva....that is that the crosses don't refer to Christianity but might refer to "something else"....please enlighten us; what could they *possibly* be referring to? Within the story they're not really used to symbolize anything.

1-Societal context? HOW? They said that no Christians worked on the show and further...such a small fraction of people in Japan are Christian, that the entire POINT of using Christian symbols they said was simply because "so few people are christian here that no one knew what the symbols of Christianity were, and they looked exotic and cool as a result".....by their very nature, and stated by Gainax, they're only there to look cool because they're symbols of a foreign exotic religion no one understands.

2-meaning to the characters: ...what exactly? the cross symbols and Kabbalah stuff have no real meaning; within the story, the idea is that Seele is a bunch of Illuminati-like religious fanatics and that's why the Angels are named after biblical angels, the "Lance of Longinus" was used to code-name an alien artifact, etc. But they could have used any old religious references it has no specific meaning (i.e. they could have interchangeably used the names "Adam", "Solomon", or "Nebuchadnezzar" and it wouldn't have changed the plot).....

EDIT: after reading through that other thread, someone else pointed out something in better words than I can:

Quote:

unless you can tell me what crosses are supposed to mean in Evangelion itself, they are a motif, not a symbol.

You're trying to make it sound more complicated than it is by using terms like "displaced metaphor".....in reality, you're just in a roundabout way describing what a "Visual Motif" is. It's a Motif, not a "metaphor"

_V_ wrote:

In which case....what WOULD the "new" metaphor of the crosses mean?

You could, y'know, actually read and understand my response that I linked to where I explain this.

Quote:

There IS no metaphorical meaning within EVa itself to the crosses, even not related to Christianity: they flat out said "we think crosses look cool so when Evas and Angels die, they explode in cross-shaped explosions because it looks cool.

Tsurumaki alone has stated that there is no Judeo-Christian meaning -- which, AGAIN, I completely agree with -- as well as the references bearing no symbolic weight. The latter explanation is a bit more tricky, because clear evidence in the show alludes to Anno having read some Jung, thus it being likely that he took a similar approach as Jung when it comes to religious images and concepts (and, well, the obvious fact that Tsurumaki cannot read Anno's mind).

Quote:

after reading through that other thread, someone else pointed out something in better words than I can:

That was originally stated by vashfanatic in this thread, not the other one.

Edit: And, once more, I want the discussion of this topic to stay in that discussion thread. If you or anyone else wishes to reply to my specific points, it'd be easier there.

The rainbow symoblism seemed a little obvious to me, you know with the juxtaposition with the cross and all...God made a rainbow in the sky as a symbol of his promise to humanity...and yet the apostles keep on coming. I haven't seen the second movie yet, but I'm looking forward to what they do with that.

Sure the characters are still dysfunctional but this wouldn't be Eva without them. There are some subtle details highlighted in this version that flesh out Shinji's character. Contrary to his reputation, Shinji is much more than a pessimistic whiner. He's a normal teenager. When he sees the Geofront and the rise of Tokyo 3 for the first time, he shows the genuine awe and appreciation one would expect from a child. When Misato grabs him for giving her lip service while she's yelling at him for insubordination, there's a little smirk on his face that says "I've made her angry. I've won." Shinji still mopes, but he also celebrates his own little vengeances and victories in his own adolescent way.

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